He'd be denying the confessions of the church and if he were a "confessing" Christian he'd be denying his confession. This would result in discipline in one form or another.
What would your church do?
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
As you stated in another post that the dispensationalism your describing is the Scofieldian version. And I would agree that you have a compelling arguement regarding that. However, contemporary dispensationalism is such a fragmented beast you would need to in detail regard the various minutia of the soteriology of each kind of dispensationalism that I am afraid that you can only apply that term to the most extreme versions. Would you call MacArthur's dispie-lite heresy? I wouldn't. Would I call Impe, Hagee, and Lindsay's heretical? You bet.
Peter
If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Let me ask a question<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />- if there was a lay person in your church who held no ministry position, who denied the deity of Christ, was sure of his belief, but didn't bother others, would he be tolerated as a student who simply didn't understand good biblical exegesis?
Henry are you equating dispensational theology to be equivical to denying Christ's deity? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Peter
If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Boanerges said: Henry are you equating dispensational theology to be equivical to denying Christ's deity? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
No, I was trying to pry in the direction of the opposite point. (Per my first post on this this thread, I'm neither dispensational or covanental, but somethere in between.)
If dispensationalism is flat out "heresy," do we treat it in the same way other "heresies" are treated? If not, are there different levels of heresy? Or is there a difference between heresy and false teaching? If I'm a partial dispensationalist, am I a partial heretic? I'm not saying I have the answers to the question's I've raised, but am I am quite enjoying the exchange so far.
BTW, I'm hitting the road with my family tomorrow for a while so will have to catch up on this all later.
I understand what you are saying and I very much agree.
People may hope, pray and speculate all they wish about some sort of future mass conversion of the ethnic unbelieving Jew (They should do this as well with all others). It is true that our God calls, elects and regenerates according to His good wisdom and pleasure. IMO, however, there is no Scriptural warrant for believing that this is a prophetic future fact as the "hard core" dispys do.
Denny
Roms 3:22-24
Denny
Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Just curious as to everyone's interpretation here?
Quote
Romans 11:25-27 25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." --- NASB
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. ----- KJV
25I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this?
"A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel from all ungodliness.
27 And then I will keep my covenant with them and take away their sins." 28Many of the Jews are now enemies of the Good News. But this has been to your benefit, for God has given his gifts to you Gentiles. Yet the Jews are still his chosen people because of his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. 30Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the Jews refused his mercy, God was merciful to you instead. 31And now, in the same way, the Jews are the rebels, and God's mercy has come to you. But someday they, too, will share in God's mercy. 32For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. ---- NLT
I interpret "All Israel" to mean all Israelites past present and future.
But as we know, Dispensationalists, such as MacArthur, interpret this to mean a mass conversion of Israelites at the end of times.
But I don't think that this is warrant to separate the church from the Israel Nation. Because we read this in Romans 9:6-8,
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
;
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
I would have to say though that when it comes to eschatology it is very hard to come to a exact truth. As I read Jeff's link to "Paul's theology of Israel's Future", I was reminded that there have been Orthodox preachers and teachers that have been Postmill and Amill. When It comes down to certain scriptures, I have to admit to myself that my glasses are still cloudy and that there is a certain amount of mystery that only God understands.
But does Dispensationalism just cover eschatology? No it covers a wide amount of doctrine and definitely affects a persons overall view of Scripture and lays a definite foundation and presupposition.
Knowing Godly people though who are Dispensationalists and also thinking about John MacArthur, it is clear that Dispensationalism is not a stumbling block to saving faith.
But as I understand Heresy, it is breaking away from Orthodoxy. So it is my understanding that Dispensationalism is definitely a system of doctrine that breaks away from Orthodox Christianity.
So under this understanding I will have to admit that I view dispensationalism as heresy.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
Dispensationalism in some form is a reality, whether accepted or not. Right off, when we open our bibles we see there is the Old Testament and the New Testament. Both two covenant dispensations. One espousing the Law and one revealing the fullness of grace. And then we have the formation of the church in comparison to the nation of Israel in the Old Testament. In this age God is dealing primarily with the gentiles, rather than exclusively with the nation of Israel.
Salvation is also different from the Old covenant and the New covenant. The old required one to OBEY the law of Moses or be cut off from Israel and God. The New Covenant requires one to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.Acts 16:31.
So yes, dispenstionalism is very prevalent in the bible. For dispensationalism is nothing more than rightly dividing God's plan with man.
Sorry, but there is so much error in your reply, it would require far too much time and space to deal with each and every one of them. So, I'm going to cop out here and simply refer you to this page: Eschatology: The Doctrine of Last Things. There are many articles there that expose and refute Dispensationalism and the errors you have mentioned.
wow...I never knew dispensationalism had this much error in it. Thanks, delvanis, for expounding on that. The more I hear about this system, the less scriptural it sounds.
2Pe 1:2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
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