The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum cremation

Let me try understand your question: there are only two reasons why you would ask me this (as far as I am able to perceive)...

What remains is for you to produce biblical evidence which teaches that dead bodies "sleep".

- either 1. my previous posts have been interprited to conclude that when we die, we dont really die but we just fall asleep.
- or 2. you want me to provide biblical evidence which shows that there is such a thing as a state of death when it comes to our bodies. (as opposed to death being a doorway into glorification (for our body), instead, death is a repository where our body "waits" untill the time of glorification arives).

If it is 1. then I have no reason to continue this conversation, seeing that the only way to continue this discussion is for somebody to cling to such details as words put in quotes ("sleep"). In the Bible "sleep" is a poetic allusion used to refere to death. For anybody to think that I went beyond the figurative use of sleep insults not only me, but it completely dwarfs their capability to accept something to be right.

If it is 2.
Well... ok... how about these...

Job 14: 11-12 As water disappears from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dries up, so man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep.

Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

...there is an actual state of sepearation between the body and spirit

Revelation 20: 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

1 corinthians: 15 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

1 Corinthians 15: 51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

..... Why make things so difficult? You said that the "body sleeps". And I simply asked for biblical evidence that would support this statement, "the body sleeps at death". There is nothing in any of the texts you supplied that is even remotely relevant to this. So, I'll ask once again..... Where in the Bible can you show that it teaches that at death, the body sleeps and thus supporting your contention that there is a difference between a corpse and a dead body?

It is our position that "corpse" and "dead body" are synonymous terms and there is no "sleep" involved with the corporeal element of man. The soul/person "sleeps", i.e., it is separated from the body which has the appearance of one sleeping, but in actuality the soul is immediately taken to be with the Lord in heaven; the intermediate state wherein it awaits the consummation and its glorification. It is at this time that the incomplete person, having been separated from its earthly body, is given a body spiritual/incorruptible, which apparently will be similar in outward appearance to the earthly/corruptible body, if we may use the example of happened to the Lord Christ.

In His grace,

Jadeitedrake0,

Your attempt to distinguish the "dead body" from the "corpse" is pure sophistry. A corpse IS a dead body: they are synonymous. The Bible nowhere makes the distinction between the body and the corpse that you do.

sophism: a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone.

C..inB.., if your statement concerning my "pure sophestry" is to be valid please show how my argument is invalid


Consider also the repurcussion of this statement...

The Bible nowhere makes the distinction between the body and the corpse that you do.

...if I told you that water is made up of 2 solid particles of Hydrogen and 1 Oxygen, whould you also call that pure sophistry just because that distinction is no-where in the Bible?

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and a sound mind." 2Tim 1:7

...... Why make things so difficult?

I'm not the one making this difficult! ...Err... and haven't your mother ever told you not to roll your eyes at people, its impolite!

Let me turn the rant on... testing.... 1... 2.. 3.. ok...
Here's what you say... and here's what I say... and here's why we are almost agreeing!

YOU: there is no "sleep" involved with the corporeal element of man.
ME: THAT IS CORRECT!!! No where have I (nor the Bible)deffined a body as something always corporeal (physical would be a better word)!
YOU: The soul/person "sleeps", i.e., it is separated from the body which has the appearance of one sleeping...
ME: ...and not only the appearence of sleep is connoted, but also an expectation of what everyone who is asleep will do and that is awake!
YOU: ...but in actuality the soul is immediately taken to be with the Lord in heaven; the intermediate state wherein it awaits the consummation and its glorification...
ME: ...and if you ask that soul (splirit would be a better word here), "Soul, where is your body?" It could answer you in-terms of its body, "My body is dead! But not for long! For it is awaiting its promised resurection!"
or... it could answer you in-terms of its corpse, "My old body has been destroyed; it is no more! But not for long! For I am awaiting a promise! That is the recreation of my body!"

Thus... a new body viewed in-terms of resurection is a dead body (when body and spirit separate). A new body viewed in-terms of re-creation is a destroyed body; a corpse when body and spirit separate).

YOU: ...the intermediate state wherein it awaits the consummation and its glorification
ME: THAT IS CORRECT!! that separation is a state and not just an event!
YOU: It is at this time that the incomplete person, having been separated from its earthly body, is given a body spiritual/incorruptible....
ME: ...This is how you chose to define the resurection of a body from the dead or, when viewed in-terms of the corpse, the recreation of the new body from non-existence.
YOU: ...which apparently will be similar in outward appearance to the earthly/corruptible body, if we may use the example of happened to the Lord Christ.
ME: ...and again... YOU ARE CORRECT!!!

Thus! where do we differ? Only in one thing... If all of you state and fervently believe that this body, at death, becomes a corpse -- a corpse which never inherits the Kingdom of God; a corpse which is so insuficient to be our body in the comming life that God Himself will have to recreate something a-new to house our spirit, how can we argue any importence into it?!



...why does it matter where the ball is if we are wearing the same jersey?

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

The translators of the NASB certainly did not differentiate between corpse and dead body:

Because my Bible uses dead body in Isaiah 26, see if you can find what word is used here in Hebrew. Further more, should we view these as litteral, physical corpses (and thus everything which litteral connotes) or is there another "corpse" which is being spoken of here?

Careful here not to commit the same error as Dispansationalists do w/ Revilations by choosing what they wish to take as litteral (like the Millenium) and what they take figuratively (like horsemen).

As you wish:

Isaiah 26:19 (KJV) Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Hebrew: neb-ay-law
1) Strong's Concordance: a flabby thing, i.e. a carcase or carrion (human or bestial, often collectively); figuratively, an idol:-- (dead) body, (dead) carcase, dead of itself, which died, (beast) that (which) dieth of itself. (#5038 p. 76 Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary)
2) Young's Analytical Concordance: beast that dieth of itself, body, carcase, dead body, dead carcase, dead of itself, which died, which dieth of itself. (p. 31 Index-Lexicon to the Old Testament)
3) Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, Brown, Driver and Briggs: carcass, corpse (p. 615b)

Not only do any translators not make a distinction between "dead body" and "corpse", but no dictionary which I own makes such a distinction either.

In His grace,

A corspe IS a dead body and vice versa. That's why your argument is invalid.



More sophistic argumentation from you.

There IS NO DISTINCTION between a "corpse" and a "dead body," any more than there's a disctinction between "H2O" and "water"!

C...inB..., plz 1. read my posts, 2. then think, 3. then write.

If the Bible does not make a distinction between two objects, does that lack of specifyed destinction constitute an absolute dictation that there is no distinction?

The Bible does not specify absolute detailed difference between a corpse and a dead body. So when I come and show you (black on white) how a corpse differs from a dead body you claim that I'm engagin in sophistry.

The Bible does not specify that this liquid thing, water, is made of solid substences. Yet, when your chemistry teacher made that specification did you engage the claim that he was a sophist?!

Instead of asking questions why dont you start anwsering?

A corspe IS a dead body and vice versa. That's why your argument is invalid.

...so having put yourself at the podium, don't just stop there, plz, if I am wrong you must prove this statement!

Hebrew: neb-ay-law
1) Strong's Concordance: a flabby thing, i.e. a carcase or carrion (human or bestial, often collectively); figuratively, an idol:-- (dead) body, (dead) carcase, dead of itself, which died, (beast) that (which) dieth of itself. (#5038 p. 76 Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary)
2) Young's Analytical Concordance: beast that dieth of itself, body, carcase, dead body, dead carcase, dead of itself, which died, which dieth of itself. (p. 31 Index-Lexicon to the Old Testament)
3) Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, Brown, Driver and Briggs: carcass, corpse (p. 615b)

thx for looking things up

So, Pilgrim, are we looking here at a literal corpse? If yes, you are left to explain the reduction to absurdity I've produced earlier. If no, then what "corpse" are we talking about here?

If the old body has nothing to do with the glorified body, then why is there an empty tomb in Israel?!?!?!

Sorry, but I can no longer follow your "logic" on this topic..... "lala land" isn't a place I care to venture. You posited that a dead body and a corpse were decidedly different things and challenged everyone who holds a different view to show you your error. This I did in several ways. Now you want to know if the "corpse" is literal? When I die, my corpse, aka: dead body will be disposed of by whoever is in charge of that task. When the Lord returns, that dead body, aka: corpse, most likely will have returned to the earth having decomposed to its basic elements, will be resurrected by the command of the Lord and transformed into a spiritual body which is meet for dwelling on the New Earth.

Now, I have asked you previously, what is it, if not this same body/corpse, that will be resurrected on that great day when the Lord returns? I also provided for you the example of the Lord Christ's body which was transformed after death and which ascended into the heavens to be with the Father and which was recognized and handled by the disciples. This I understand to be what the body of all believers will resemble also.

So, in short.. YES... the body of necessity must be a literal body.

In His grace,

"lala land" isn't a place I care to venture

...glad we agree

So, Pilgrim, are we looking here at a literal corpse

here reffers to Isaiah 26 and 66.

When the Lord returns, that dead body, aka: corpse, most likely will have returned to the earth having decomposed to its basic elements, will be resurrected by the command of the Lord and transformed into a spiritual body which is meet for dwelling on the New Earth.

Thus, you say that dead body = corpse = basic elements

So, what ever happens to dead body, happens to the corpse, happens to the basic elements (making up a corpse). Such, if God was to raise the dead body, He raises a corpse, and thus by default He raises the elements making up a corpse (because a corpse w/ out thoes elements is not that corpse anymore). So what happens to the elements of one corpse which 2k years ago were part of another corpse? A corpse w/ out its same physical components (periodic table of elements) is not a corpse. Just like in justification, when my spirit recived resurection, He took my spirit operated on it and thus it is a different spririt then the old (same in kind different in substence). Same thing will be with our body when it recieves its promise of resurection, it will be same in kind but different in substence. The corpse is the substence of our old body as it is now; it is the demonstration of the ultimate curse or sin here.

Pilgrim asked:

Now, I have asked you previously, what is it, if not this same body/corpse, that will be resurrected on that great day when the Lord returns

Pilgrim anwsered:

It is at this time that the incomplete person, having been separated from its earthly body, is given a body spiritual/incorruptible, which apparently will be similar in outward appearance to the earthly/corruptible body...

...therefore a corpse,

...decomposed to its basic elements...

proven to be corruptable cannot be that body which is given to us.


...It may be that we are arguing same thing from different perspectives here...

A lumber-jack bought an axe. Since then he used that axe for 20 years, he changed the handle many times and he changed the head many times. Is it still the same axe he bought 20 years ago?

I would say, no, because a variable is defined by its constituents, which are clearly different then 20 years ago. You say, yes, because it is still the same axe he bought 20 years to chop wood with. Who's wrong here?

HUH?!?!

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Just what do you mean by the regenerated spirit being the same in kind but different in substance?

Please see my off-topic question on your definition of justification in the theology forum.