The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Trinity - Essential Doctrine # 1

I never wrote that you should tell your friend that he wasn't saved! What I wrote was in regard to your "dumbed down" version of the seriousness of the matter and your pandering to this man for what you wrote to him so as "to keep the communication open". In reply I first wrote here the following:

Personally, I would not hesitate to make clear that to deny the Trinity is to put oneself outside of historic Christianity, regardless of what else one may believe.

And I later wrote in reply here the following:

That issue is, to deny the Trinity is to deny biblical Christianity and thus any profession made upon that basis is spurious and thus the one making such a profession is liable to judgment and has not been genuinely converted. (cf. The Athanasian Creed: "This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.")

Again, it was and remains my suggestion that it be told openly and clearly to those who deny the doctrine of the Trinity that to do so is potentially fatal, i.e., their denial of the Trinity puts them outside the historic Church and is a denial of biblical Christianity. And thus, to not embrace the doctrine of the Trinity with sincerity and wholly, it is impossible to be saved.

This is NOT the same thing as telling someone directly that THEY are not saved. However, if after a reasonable amount of time spent in dialog with such an individual, giving evidence for this doctrine from the Scriptures and other sources, they continue to deny the doctrine of the Trinity it would not be unreasonable to conclude that they are not saved.

From what you wrote here: happy to report

it would seem that your friend is lacking in either comprehension or basic teaching concerning the doctrines of Christianity and/or someone has a serious problem communicating and has caused this man to be confused.

In His grace,

Although I do not believe I dumbed down what I told my friend (you did not see what I finally told him), I will take what you said under advicement.


Yes I agree with you. What gave him that impression I can only guess, but I am old enough to know that nothing surprises me anymore.

Tom

Tom
I have a confession to make. I have not been so bold to speak to my family and friends as I suggested you should be. So forgive my hypocrisy please.
But wouldn’t you agree that there is no greater expression of love to our neighbor than to tell them their lost (not referring to your friend apparently he does believe in the trinity) and tell them about the Lord Jesus Christ?

I remember being the third party during visitation and playing Bible ping pong in the parking lot for over an hour over the trinity with a JW something I said I would never do again. Glad everything worked out with your friend.

William

I think we are all hypocrites to one degree or another, so there is no need to apologize to me.
I also agree that telling someone that they are lost and need of Jesus, is a very loving thing to do.
But I also believe that we should try to learn the spiritual state of someone before we jump to conclusions.

As I told Pilgrim, I do not believe that I dumbed down the message I gave to my friend. If you have any question on my last point, read the quotes that Wes made in his post. I included many of them in one of my e-mails to my friend.

Tom

The best way to approach a JW on the topic is to avoid the word "Trinity" at first. (Partly because the word is not found in the Bible, and partly because JWs have been taught this word refers to a three-headed false god invented by Satan.) Focus instead on identifying Jesus as Deity; then on identifying the Holy Spirit as Deity.

Once a JW sees the biblical evidence for the deity of Christ and the deity of the Holy Spirit, he is left with the task of coming up with a word to describe the one true God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He now has to coin a word or accept the one Christians have used for centuries.

David,

You're probably aware that the JWs have their own version of the Bible too. The "World Translation" which is an edited King James version modified to suit their preconcieved ideas. So if you are going to debate the godhead with a JW be sure to have a "real" Bible on hand for your discussion. If they have theirs open to the same passage you'll note the differences. In their version the "son of god" is always in lower case type so as not to be put on the same level as Jehovah. However, if one wishes to deny Jesus' divinity, the Gospels must also be surrendered. Christianity stands or falls on the divinity of Christ.

I find Hebrews is an excellent book to reference on this topic. The author of Hebrews makes it clear that God's Son is the last and best word spoked by God. He is exalted above the angels even though He was made lower than the angels for a time when He humbled himself to suffer and die for the sins of many. He has become our faithful High Priest and the lone mediator between God and man.


Wes

Wes,

Actually, I prefer to use the "New World Translation" when witnessing to JW's, and even more, their "Greek Interlinear" with footnotes. It is incredibly simple to discredit their translation, e.g., of John 1:1 with the Greek. All one need do is show them the gross inconsistency in their fractured Greek grammar comparing their translation of John 1:1 with John 1:18. In short, they deny the predicate nominative in John 1:1 but assert it in John 1:18; "No man hath seen God (theos w/o the article) at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Another effective argument is to show a failed prophecy made by the Watch Tower, e.g., in their book, Millions Now Living Will Never Die, published by International Bible Students Association, Brooklyn, New York: 1920 on pp. 88-90 and 97 they wrote:

The chief thing to be restored is the human race to life; and since other Scriptures definitely fix the fact that there will be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful ones of old, and that these will have the first favor, we may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of death, being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible, legal representatives of the new order of things on earth. . . .

As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly phase of the kingdom shall be recognized. The Apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord and before the beginning of the selection of the church. These can never be a part of the heavenly class; they had no heavenly hopes; but God has in store something good for them. They are to be resurrected as perfect men and constitute the princes of rulers in the earth, according to this promise. (Psalm 45:16; Isaiah 32:1; Matthew 8:11) Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection. . . .

Based upon the argument heretofore set forth, then, that the old order of things, the old world, is ending and is therefore passing away, and shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old and the beginning of reconstruction, it is reasonable to conclude that millions of people now on the earth will be still on the earth in 1925. Then, based upon the promises set forth in the divine Word, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die.

The one pointed question I always ask JW's after having them read these sections of their own book is, "When was the last time you talked with Abraham, Isaac and/or Jacob?" Another fact which substantiates their view that 1925 would mark the resurrection of those who had died is that in 1924 the JW's spent over a million dollars building a massive house in New York called, "Beth Serim" to house all these expected resurrected people.

Now..... since it is undeniable that none of those who they said would rise from the dead and rule the visible kingdom of God on earth, and all those who they said would never die are nowhere to be found, then this prophesy is shown to be false. Thus to drive the final nail into their coffin, all one needs to do is open their book, Aids to Bible Understanding, and read on page 1348 under the heading, "Distinguishing the True From the False" (prophet), where they quote from Deuteronomy 18:20-22 which demands that when a man makes a prophesy which does not come to pass, he is not of God and therefore you shall take this false prophet outside the gates of the city and stone him to death.

In His grace,

Pilgrim,

I hadn't read their prophecy about the return of Abraham and others in 1925 but that is a very convicting argument about false teaching. I wonder how many JWs are aware of this.


Wes

Although some JWs have made the leap from heresy to orthodoxy in one sitting, I find that to be extremely rare. They are usually so steeped in their error that it takes months or years to make the transition.

In my own case (I was raised a Unitarian, became an atheist in my teen years, then a JW -- remained a JW 13 years, 8 years as an elder) the first step in correcting my view of the Deity was to realize Jesus could not be an angel. The Watchtower Society teaches he was the first angel created by Jehovah, and so was like a son to him.

What broke through my muddled thinking in that area was the realization that, although an angel can be in only one place at a time (Dan. 10:10-20), Jesus faces no such limitation, but rather interacts with believers worldwide simultaneously. Not a surprise to Christians, but an eye-opener to me as I was leaving the JWs.

From there, it was just a few more steps -- but painful and slow -- to put it all together that he is who even his Jewish opponents realized he claimed to be: "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." - John 10:33

Yes this approach and the others are all good if the person is an acquaintance so you can have time to work on him.
I was referring to visitation or a street situation. I believe that we should not try to convince them (JW's or other debaters) of the Godhead or
other doctrines but only focus on telling them of the coming day of judgement and the finished work of Jesus Christ. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Thanks Bill

Yes, when they are at your door or on the street, it's good to give them something to think about. I've compiled some suggestions for doing that on my site at http://www.cftf.com/booklets/jwslisten/

Thanks for the link. May the Lord bless
Bill

Pilgrim

I have used the false prophesy angle a few times with JWs, but unfortunately all I did was get their dander up.
They informed me in no uncertain terms that those examples were not prophesies and also said that no man knows the day nor the hour.
I was left just shaking my head and dropping the subject.

Tom

Wes

As I said to Pilgrim in my last post, they usually say that those were not prophesies.

I thought I would tell you something else that I think is a huge blow to the foundation of the Watch Tower Society.
I am not sure you are aware of the importance that pyramids played in the early years of the Watch Tower Society.

(Details are from memory of conversations about 10 years ago)
I had a friend who for a time was a JW, he told me about the time he and an elder JW went to the house of a Christian. During the discussion the Christian brought up the fact that even their founder Charles Tess Russell was buried under a pyramid shaped head stone. The elder JW said that was a big lie.
Fortunately my friend's desire for the truth was stronger than the word of the elder JW (to question an elder could mean excommunication).
He decided that he was going to check things out for himself and go to the grave site of Charles Tess Russell himself. When he did he found out that what the Christian said was true after all. Further research also showed him that it wasn’t until the late 1920s (not sure of that date) that the Watch Tower Society distanced themselves from teachings on pyramids. However, my friend was not fooled by this because if the teaching of their founder could not be trusted, then obviously their whole system is on a shaky foundation.
At that point, my friend quit being a JW even before he was excommunicated.

I wish I could tell you more about the specific meaning that the Watch Tower Society placed on pyramids in their early years, but I can’t.

On the subject of questioning an elder, to a JW there is a fear that holds them strongly to the organization.
Although questions are encouraged, if the answer does not satisfy the JW who asked the question, they know that to question the word of the organization can result in serious consequences.
These consequences could include, minor discipline or excommunication. To the JW who has family and friends in the organization, the family is to treat the offending person as apostate, which is a very demoralizing thing to happen to anyone.
Needless to say, when we are witnessing to a JW we should keep that in mind and pray for the person.

Tom

pilgrim said
I ask myself the same question as to arminians the free willers and the universalist who claim that christ died for every one and now its up to you to choose him. <snip>
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The remainder of your irrelevant remarks have been removed because they were way

This "Limited Atonement gospel" hobby horse of yours is going to get you removed from this Board should you continue in this manner! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scold.gif" alt="" />