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doulos #29730 Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:38 AM
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doulos,

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Likewise God must "endure" the vessels of wrath.

This is the truth that b57 refuses to believe. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

Our sovereign God is no more guilty of creating evil or sin than Jesus was at Calvary. This is even though Jesus could have freely avoided the evil and sin of His own murder by calling legions of angels to His rescue.

b57 insists on Scripture to "prove", so here is a verse directed at the evil being in heavenly places who started this inexplicable, inexcusable and unfathomable rebellion in the first place.

Quote
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. (Eze 28:15)

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
J_Edwards #29731 Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:59 AM
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you say
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Can sin exist without a sinner? Since you believe God created sin prior to man even sinning then you must also believe in the pre-existence of life--prior to Adam

Yes I do believe in sin before adam sinned, else where did the serpent come from ?

[qoute]unless God himself is "the sinner of the entire universe.[/quote]

You said that I did not !

je says
Quote
According to Plato's doctrine of anamnesis, our souls preexist our earthly birth; our true home is our place of origin among the gods. Philo, Gnostisim, and Hinduism all teach the pre-existence of souls.


I don`t know what plato wrote, I don`t read that stuff !

je says
Quote
Is this what you believe?

No I don`t believe that, you are inferring that and you are being very dishonest <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/chatter.gif" alt="" />

and again God created everything , thats not what I say, but what scripture says:



Is 46: 10

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

rev 4: 11

"You are worthy, O Lord our God,
to receive glory and honor and power.
For you created everything,
and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created

I really like this translation :
You are worthy, our Lord and God!
You are worthy to receive glory and honor and power.
You are worthy because you created all things.
They were created and they exist.
That is the way you planned it."

Our Lord and God, [h]

You are worthy to receive

glory and honor and power,

because You have created all things,

and because of Your will

they exist and were created

"Our Lord and our God, it is right for You to have the shining-greatness and the honor and the power. You made all things. They were made and have life because You wanted it that way."


Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and dominion, for You created all things; by Your will they were [brought into being] and were created.(A)

The word of God speaks on its own , you either belive it or you don`t.

beloved57 #29732 Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:06 PM
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beloved57 said:
The word of God speaks on its own , you either belive it or you don`t.
The issue isn't one of "believing" but in "interpreting" the Word of God. Again, the difference between you and everyone else, including the historic Christian Church is one of "exegesis" vs. "eisogesis". And thus you err and that most grievously.

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Pilgrim #29733 Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:24 PM
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Pilgrim said:
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beloved57 said:
The word of God speaks on its own , you either belive it or you don`t.
The issue isn't one of "believing" but in "interpreting" the Word of God. Again, the difference between you and everyone else, including the historic Christian Church is one of "exegesis" vs. "eisogesis". And thus you err and that most grievously.

In His grace,

There is only one way to interpret that God created all things, and thats ,He created every thing, There is no such thing as God`s permissive will, that is a myth <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> Anything and everything that exsist finds it`s origin in God's active determined , sovereign immutable will.

beloved57 #29734 Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:42 PM
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The temptation was of the Devil, but the Sin was Adam's doing and the blame is his and his children, I.e., everyone. You can't blame it on God b57--its all your fault.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
beloved57 #29735 Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:42 PM
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B57,

Yes I do believe in sin before adam sinned, else where did the serpent come from ?
So you affirm then sin cannot exist without a sinner and that the first sinner was Satan? Was he created prior to God creating sin "in your way of thinking"? Please provide biblical evidence.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
J_Edwards #29736 Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:01 PM
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J_Edwards said:
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B57,

Yes I do believe in sin before adam sinned, else where did the serpent come from ?
So you affirm then sin cannot exist without a sinner and that the first sinner was Satan? Was he created prior to God creating sin "in your way of thinking"?

The premise was, do I believe that there was sin before adam sinned ? Yes I do.

[qoute] Was he created prior to God creating sin "in your way of thinking"? [/qoute] I don`t know, but thats not the issue. The issue is that God created everything and everyone including sin , and including satan for His purpose and pleasure. God does not have to be evil, to create evil !

isa 45: 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I know the context , don`t bore me with that , you should not limit the word evil there to just calamity, just as you don`t limit light to just light, or limit darkness to just darkness. or peace to just civil peace <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

evil in that verse is the heb word RAH = 1) bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant



b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)


f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)

i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

2) deeds, actions


7451 ra` rah from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

doulos #29737 Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:07 PM
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doulos said:
The temptation was of the Devil, but the Sin was Adam's doing and the blame is his and his children, I.e., everyone. You can't blame it on God b57--its all your fault.

Did God want adam to yield to satan ? yes or no ?

beloved57 #29738 Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:31 PM
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Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?

And before you protest that you've never beat your wife and what has that to do with the topic I would like to point out that your question has been answered multiple times. You in your blindness unable to understand the word of God still insist on an absurdity and so I have answered like for like.( Proverbs 26:5)

But B57 its not too late, repent believe the true gospel and come into a true knowledge of the faith. For if you don't you will be found in your sins having believed on a false gospel.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Peter #29739 Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:36 PM
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The issue is not how God created sin , But that he did create it for His purpose and His pleasure !

beloved57 #29740 Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:51 PM
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beloved57 said:
Quote
J_Edwards said:
Quote
B57,

Yes I do believe in sin before adam sinned, else where did the serpent come from ?
So you affirm then sin cannot exist without a sinner and that the first sinner was Satan? Was he created prior to God creating sin "in your way of thinking"?

The premise was, do I believe that there was sin before adam sinned ? Yes I do.

[qoute] Was he created prior to God creating sin "in your way of thinking"? [/qoute] I don`t know, but thats not the issue. The issue is that God created everything and everyone including sin , and including satan for His purpose and pleasure. God does not have to be evil, to create evil !

isa 45: 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I know the context , don`t bore me with that , you should not limit the word evil there to just calamity, just as you don`t limit light to just light, or limit darkness to just darkness. or peace to just civil peace <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

evil in that verse is the heb word RAH = 1) bad, evil

a) bad, disagreeable, malignant



b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

c) evil, displeasing

d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

e) bad (of value)


f) worse than, worst (comparison)

g) sad, unhappy

h) evil (hurtful)

i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

1) in general, of persons, of thoughts

2) deeds, actions


7451 ra` rah from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).
B57 there is no need for you to describe yourself. We already know your situation.

Now please answer my question--if you can?

Sin cannot exist without a sinner. You state that the first sinner was Satan? Was Satan created prior to God creating sin "in your way of thinking"? PLEASE answer the question(s).


Reformed and Always Reforming,
beloved57 #29741 Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:51 PM
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No B57 the issue is that you have been repeatedly shown that you are at odds with the historic Christian faith and you have been called to account multiple times by not only the faithful brethren who understand such things as God's providence and the fall of Man but also by the various moderators of this discussion forum.

Your stubborness and unteachable spirit has been pointed out to you time and again. But lest it be said that you've never know what the historic church has taught regarding sin:
Westminister Confession Chapter 5
5:4 The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men (2Sa_16:10; 2Sa_24:1; 1Ki_22:22, 1Ki_22:23; 1Ch_10:4, 1Ch_10:13, 1Ch_10:14; 1Ch_21:1; Act_2:23; Act_4:27, Act_4:28; Rom_11:32-34); and that not by a bare permission (Act_14:16), but such as hath joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding (2Ki_19:29; Psa_76:10), and otherwise ordering and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends (Gen_1:20; Isa_10:6, Isa_10:7, Isa_10:12); [color:"FF0000"]yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceedeth only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither, is nor can be, the author or approver of sin[/color] (Psa_50:21; Jam_1:13, Jam_1:14, Jam_1:17; 1Jo_2:16).

and
London Confession of Baptist Faith Chapter Five
IV. The Almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in His providence, that His determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men;[11] and that not by a bare permission, which also He most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth,[12] in a manifold dispensation to His most holy ends;[13] [color:"00FF00"]yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.[14][/color]

As I said repentence is the first step.
11. Rom. 11:32-34; II Sam. 24:1; I Chr. 21:1
12. II Kings 19:28; Psa. 76:10
13. Gen. 1:20; Isa. 10:6-7, 12
14. Psa. 50:21; I John 2:16


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Adopted #29742 Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:10 PM
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you say :

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Likewise God must "endure" the vessels of wrath.

this comes from rom 9 where we find in vs 21 these words :

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump toto make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The word make here is defined :1) to make

a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

b) to be the authors of, the cause

c) to make ready, to prepare


d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

f) to make a thing out of something

g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

h) to put one forth, to lead him out

i) to make one do something

1) cause one to

j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

2) to do

a) to act rightly, do well

1) to carry out, to execute

b) to do a thing unto one

1) to do to one

c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

d) to celebrate, keep

1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

e) to perform: to a promise

Don`t try to say that paul is talking about fallen mankind, he is not. he uses the word clay. Pelos

which is :1) clay, which potters uses

2) mud (wet clay)

Check everywhere the word is used in the N. T and it never means fallen humanity, that is a forced interpretation. Paul is merely making the point that God has the right to make a person the way He wants to.

doulos says:
Quote
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. (Eze 28:15)

First, he says you were perfect in your ways, not that you were perfect as in sinless <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

second, since you harp on context, who was speaking ? and who was being spoken to ?

Third, if you say it is satan to whom he is speaking before he fell, then what does it mean iniquity was found in him, not that he committed iniquity, but it was found in him..Iniquity was in him all the time, but it manifest it self...

beloved57 #29743 Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:59 PM
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Methinks there is madness in your method. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/3stooges.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Adopted #29744 Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:17 PM
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They thought the same thing about Paul and the other people of God..

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