Most Protestants go to churches that commune everyone without exception. Even in churches that require communicants to give an account of their faith, the examination is often so brief that basic tenets of Christianity are omitted. Are such churches communions of saints or public restaurants? May a Christian, in good conscience, commune at these churches?
speratus said: Most Protestants go to churches that commune everyone without exception. Even in churches that require communicants to give an account of their faith, the examination is often so brief that basic tenets of Christianity are omitted. Are such churches communions of saints or public restaurants? May a Christian, in good conscience, commune at these churches?
How in depth should a church go in examing a person. Even then how do you know if the person is being truthful?
How in depth should a church go in examing a person?
Most reformation churches have Q&A catechisms prepared by the church fathers. The answers is should be child's play for anyone who is properly prepared to receive the sacrament. Additional questions may be asked based on popular heresies.
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Even then how do you know if the person is being truthful?
Mindreading is not one of the qualifications for being an elder.
speratus said: Most reformation churches have Q&A catechisms prepared by the church fathers. The answers is should be child's play for anyone who is properly prepared to receive the sacrament. Additional questions may be asked based on popular heresies.
Soooooo, are you saying that for anyone to be qualified to partake of the Lord's Table they must first pass a Catechetical examination conducted by the Elders of the church? IF this is what you believe, could you then point me to a specific place in Scripture where one is required to pass such an indepth examination before coming to the Table rather than simply making a valid profession of faith to show that they are united to Christ?
Oh..... and is there one standard Catechism that you have in view here, or are there more than one that would be acceptable to use?
Additional questions may be asked based on popular heresies.
Without looking it up on the Internet, you are standing in front of the elders in a Florida Church (visiting from Luthersville, TN) and then they ask you to explain and defend why you would or would not entertain James Lovelock, GAIA WORSHIP. This is your examination question before allowed to take the sacrament, Speratus.
speratus said: Most reformation churches have Q&A catechisms prepared by the church fathers. The answers is should be child's play for anyone who is properly prepared to receive the sacrament. Additional questions may be asked based on popular heresies.
Soooooo, are you saying that for anyone to be qualified to partake of the Lord's Table they must first pass a Catechetical examination conducted by the Elders of the church? IF this is what you believe, could you then point me to a specific place in Scripture where one is required to pass such an indepth examination before coming to the Table rather than simply making a valid profession of faith to show that they are united to Christ?
I'm not proposing any hard and fast rule on the content of the examination. Questions from the catechism are merely a suggested starting place. The principle is established by Acts 2:42; Romans 16:17; 1 Cor. 11:18-20 etc.. The holy Catholic Church is without any division, continues stedfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and in breaking of bread, marks and avoids those who cause divisions and offenses, etc.
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Pilgrim said:Oh..... and is there one standard Catechism that you have in view here, or are there more than one that would be acceptable to use?
The elders, called by Christ as the stewards of the mysteries, determine the questions to be asked to comply with the aforementioned scriptures. Not me!
speratus said: I'm not proposing any hard and fast rule on the content of the examination. Questions from the catechism are merely a suggested starting place. The principle is established by Acts 2:42; Romans 16:17; 1 Cor. 11:18-20 etc.. The holy Catholic Church is without any division, continues stedfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and in breaking of bread, marks and avoids those who cause divisions and offenses, etc.
The elders, called by Christ as the stewards of the mysteries, determine the questions to be asked to comply with the aforementioned scriptures. Not me!
Not ONE of the verses you referenced makes any mention whatsoever about examining someone the way you have proposed in order to be qualified to partake of the Lord's Table.
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Acts 2:42 (ASV) "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers."
Romans 16:17 (ASV) "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which ye learned: and turn away from them."
1 Corinthians 11:18-20 (ASV) "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also factions among you, that they that are approved may be made manifest among you. When therefore ye assemble yourselves together, it is not possible to eat the Lord's supper:"
What is all too clear is that YOU have fabricated a requirement of men which the Bible knows nothing about as a means to either allow or reject those who would come to the Lord's Table. As I have stated so many times before concerning any and all practices which would bar Christ's sheep who desire to heed HIS voice from coming to HIS table, it is not YOUR church nor YOUR Lord's Table, but it belongs to the LORD Jesus Christ and it is HE alone Who can regulate who is to come. And, HE has established the guidelines, i.e., one must profess faith in Him, examine himself/herself and not be under discipline by the church. Anything more than that is contrary to the will of Christ and is a serious affront to Him and a sin against those whom HE has called. This type of Pharisaical behaviour would effectively bar every new believer and babe in Christ; those who are most needy of Christ's affection and comfort, from the Table. Shame on you!!
The following two passages of Scripture describe in principle that which you seek to do by requiring an individual to pass a doctrinal examination before being allowed to partake of the Lord's Table:
Mark 7:9-13 (ASV) "And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death: but ye say, If a man shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is Corban, that is to say, Given [to God]; ye no longer suffer him to do aught for his father or his mother; making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do."
Acts 15:7-11 (ASV) "And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they."
Additional questions may be asked based on popular heresies.
Without looking it up on the Internet, you are standing in front of the elders in a Florida Church (visiting from Luthersville, TN) and then they ask you to explain and defend why you would or would not entertain James Lovelock, GAIA WORSHIP. This is your examination question before allowed to take the sacrament, Speratus.
I know nothing about this James Lovelock. If he abides in the doctrine of Christ, he is welcome. If he brings not the doctrine of Christ, he is not welcome in my house. 2 John 10.
Not ONE of the verses you referenced makes any mention whatsoever about examining someone the way you have proposed in order to be qualified to partake of the Lord's Table.
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Acts 2:42 (ASV) "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers."
Romans 16:17 (ASV) "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which ye learned: and turn away from them."
1 Corinthians 11:18-20 (ASV) "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also factions among you, that they that are approved may be made manifest among you. When therefore ye assemble yourselves together, it is not possible to eat the Lord's supper:"
What is all too clear is that YOU have fabricated a requirement of men which the Bible knows nothing about as a means to either allow or reject those who would come to the Lord's Table. As I have stated so many times before concerning any and all practices which would bar Christ's sheep who desire to heed HIS voice from coming to HIS table, it is not YOUR church nor YOUR Lord's Table, but it belongs to the LORD Jesus Christ and it is HE alone Who can regulate who is to come. And, HE has established the guidelines, i.e., one must profess faith in Him, examine himself/herself and not be under discipline by the church. Anything more than that is contrary to the will of Christ and is a serious affront to Him and a sin against those whom HE has called. This type of Pharisaical behaviour would effectively bar every new believer and babe in Christ; those who are most needy of Christ's affection and comfort, from the Table. Shame on you!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scold.gif" alt="" />
Then, you must be willing to join in communion with those who deny the trinity, the atonement, justification by faith only, etc. as long as they make a profession of faith in Christ and are not under discipline at some heretical church. Communing those who deny the doctrine of Christ is an affront to the gospel and destroys the unity of the holy Christian Church.
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Pilgrim said: The following two passages of Scripture describe in principle that which you seek to do by requiring an individual to pass a doctrinal examination before being allowed to partake of the Lord's Table:
<blockquote> Mark 7:9-13 (ASV) "And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death: but ye say, If a man shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is Corban, that is to say, Given [to God]; ye no longer suffer him to do aught for his father or his mother; making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do."
Acts 15:7-11 (ASV) "And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they."<br> </blockquote>
In His grace,
Your verses apply to the keeping of the law and to the preaching of the gospel. Neither text applies directly to the administration of the sacrament of communion which my texts do.
speratus said: Then, you must be willing to join in communion with those who deny the trinity, the atonement, justification by faith only, etc. as long as they make a profession of faith in Christ and are not under discipline at some heretical church. Communing those who deny the doctrine of Christ is an affront to the gospel and destroys the unity of the holy Christian Church.
The communion of the saints is based upon a CREDIBLE profession of faith. Your sectarianism and exclusivism has nothing to do with the true Church of the Lord. One is united to Christ at the very moment that true faith is exercised. And from that very moment, that individual is qualified and thus called by the LORD of Glory HIMSELF to come to HIS table. The Lord's Table knows nothing of Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, Congregational, etc. It is open to ALL who are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. Who are YOU to forbid those whom Christ bids to come to HIS table?
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speratus blurts: Your verses apply to the keeping of the law and to the preaching of the gospel. Neither text applies directly to the administration of the sacrament of communion which my texts do.
They are more than applicable because they DO apply to the "keeping of the law", particularly man-made laws which nullify the grace and law of God. There is NOTHING anywhere to be found in God's inspired written Word about one having to pass some catechetical examination conjured up by the imaginations of men in order to have warrant to come to the Lord's Table! The Lord's Table is first and foremost a believer's having communion with CHRIST and not some alleged "communion" with other men who are able to correctly answer a list of arbitrary questions.
There will be far more people worshiping God in eternity on the New Earth than your little sectarian congregation/denomination who Christ will embrace and utter those most coveted words: "Well done, good and faithful servant!"
1 Corinthians 10:12 (KJV) "[color:"red"]Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.[/color]"
Additional questions may be asked based on popular heresies.
Without looking it up on the Internet, you are standing in front of the elders in a Florida Church (visiting from Luthersville, TN) and then they ask you to explain and defend why you would or would not entertain James Lovelock, GAIA WORSHIP. This is your examination question before allowed to take the sacrament, Speratus.
I know nothing about this James Lovelock. If he abides in the doctrine of Christ, he is welcome. If he brings not the doctrine of Christ, he is not welcome in my house. 2 John 10.
That reply would surely not get you through your sacrament examination, but thanks for making my point. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> It is doubtful if any here have heard of this Lovelock or GAIA WORSHIP, however the idea of the Earth as a living, divine spirit ... may help ?
Speratus, the point on this issue is very simple, heresies are normally regional before they become wide spread (Lovelock worked at NASA and thus known by some here). If you were visiting a Church away from your locale you would not even know 1/2 the problems in the place you were visiting. It would be literally impossible for the elders to examine you on every heresy, et. al. Most Christians cannot even pass a simple test on the Trinity much less an examination on some heretical group in their area. Thus, your premise is very flawed.
Stick to the basics for the examination, if indeed there is any examination at all. I have visited hundreds of Churches and NEVER been examined once before the sacraments, not once. I am not saying this is the correct posture of the Church, but it is a reality in our culture. I wonder how many here have ever been examined on a regular basis when visiting different Churches? This may make a nice poll.
The Lord's Table is first and foremost a believer's having communion with CHRIST and not some alleged "communion" with other men who are able to correctly answer a list of arbitrary questions.
This needed to be said. Thanks, Pilgrim.
Trust the past to God's mercy, the present to God's love and the future to God's providence." - St. Augustine Hiraeth
Pilgrim said: The Lord's Table is first and foremost a believer's having communion with CHRIST and not some alleged "communion" with other men who are able to correctly answer a list of arbitrary questions.
The holy Supper is not only a communion with the very body and blood of Christ, it is a communion with every other communicant at the table(1 Cor. 10:17). When churches practice open communion according to some vague formula of profession that permits known errorists and manifest sinners to be communed without examination, it causes great offense among believing Christians. Open communion does not produce unity but rather division.
Speratus, the point on this issue is very simple, heresies are normally regional before they become wide spread (Lovelock worked at NASA and thus known by some here). If you were visiting a Church away from your locale you would not even know 1/2 the problems in the place you were visiting. It would be literally impossible for the elders to examine you on every heresy, et. al. Most Christians cannot even pass a simple test on the Trinity much less an examination on some heretical group in their area. Thus, your premise is very flawed.
Stick to the basics for the examination, if indeed there is any examination at all. I have visited hundreds of Churches and NEVER been examined once before the sacraments, not once. I am not saying this is the correct posture of the Church, but it is a reality in our culture. I wonder how many here have ever been examined on a regular basis when visiting different Churches? This may make a nice poll.
Where in scripture does it say communion practice is determined by the culture? The examination should be kept simple. That's why I suggested the catechism, a tool for teaching children.
Like politics, all heresy is local. It begins with the toleration of a single error by a local congregation. It spreads to other congregations through contacts with visitors. Open communion provides the perfect breeding ground for incubating the infection: The visitor is communed without examination. He then shares his error (e.g., "God reveals Himself in three different ways.") with the weaker members of the church who, as you said, would have trouble passing a simple test on the trinity.
speratus said: When churches practice open communion according to some vague formula of profession that permits known errorists and manifest sinners to be communed without examination, it causes great offense among believing Christians. Open communion does not produce unity but rather division.
NO ONE here has even suggested "Open Communion"! This is something YOU have brought into the discussion, obviously to cover up your unbiblical view(s). All conservative Calvinists hold to some form of "Close" and some even a "Closed" Lord's Table. Those who hold to a "Closed" Table, e.g., those like yourself have no biblical warrant to do so whatsoever. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scold.gif" alt="" />
There is no possible way any examination can reveal the true nature of a person's heart. Your attempt to "purify" your church with your methodology is not only not sanctioned by Christ but ineffective as well. And before you make another stupid assumption, NO ONE would suggest that there be no discipline in the Church. We are to be guided by God's written Word and not the fanciful and most often erroneous fabrications of men. Pharisaism is opposed to God and a reliance on the wisdom of men rather than the power and work of the Holy Spirit.
Lastly, you have never addressed my questions posed to you concerning the situation where a visitor to your church, who is a professing believer; a true believer in the Lord Christ, attempts to partake of the Lord's Supper. Would and you stop this person from doing so? And how would you stop him? Would you physically try to stop this person and/or physically remove him from the building? How far are you willing to go in such matters? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />
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There will be far more people worshiping God in eternity on the New Earth than your little sectarian congregation/denomination who Christ will embrace and utter those most coveted words: "Well done, good and faithful servant!"
