The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Men's and Women's studies

Great point.
When I attended an OPC church, a member asked me why I studied so much theology. I responded that I cannot fathom why anybody would NOT want to know more about God and His Son Jesus Christ. Her response was chilling, she told me "don't worry so much about that stuff, we hear enough in church".

Is that the sign of one who was raised that way or one who is unsaved? We can't judge salvation based on such a comment, but it is a bit chilling.
Steve

Not necessarily. Why do we constantly put ALL the pressure for teaching on the pastor? He is not the only one called with the gift of teaching. Any person who is properly trained could lead a group teaching doctrine ... If a pastor is doing his job correctly he will have chosen men from the congregation in which he invests his time, efforts, etc. (this in not to say he is not ministering to the rest of the congregation, et. al.). In a sense the pastor re-duplicates himself (teaching wise) in these men and thus they "should" be equipped to do the job(s). If the ONLY true teacher in your church is the pastor, the pastor has not done his job correctly ...

Excellent reply, thank you. Yes, our pastors and elders are men. The pastor attended the study on occassion when we studied one of the secular books. I would say an average of once every 3 weeks. None of the elders attended, and neither pastors or elders attended when we studied actual theological issues. Now that the new study has started I believe one of the pastors is attending. It's tough because I want to fellowship, and I want to be discipled by other men, but I am not the least interested in this watered down material. I am not interested in learning how to be a "good boy" or how some expert expects me to manage my affairs. .
As far as the women being able to have a leader who wants good material, thats complicated. Partly because it is the women of the church who run things here. The ladies "aid society" is gone, but all the committees and boards are either ruled by a woman or they have the majority, not that the men would oppose what is going on.
It is easy to remove myself and family (as I have done) from these influences, but then our fellowship and participation is erased. I am starting to think I am in the wrong branch of the reformed camp, due to my differences regarding these issues. Thanks again for the replies.

Sorry for being so vague, but I answered that way because I really don't know the answer, but as to your following questions.

For the most part I would say that most of these events where coffee and food are served are usually just for fellowship.
It isn't that coffee and food are not been supplied where theology, doctrine etc... are being taught, it is that few men show up for them.

Tom

Doctrinal classes should be taught by those who are educated in Doctrine. Those educated in Doctrine would be the Pastors, correct? Those who are "called" by the church?
We all have a teaching role, of course. But in a public teaching of the church, this should be done by the Pastor.

It is not that we are trying to burden the Pastors, rather we are trying to appropriately shepherd the flock.

In Reformed Theology there is the "teaching elder", correct?

Nope those educated in doctrine are not necessarily "pastors" for we know what scripture teaches:
So you see pastors and teachers are seperate callings although some may have both gifts. So the church is to make use of those with the teaching gifts and use them to teach the men of the church.

Johnnie said:

This seems to be similar to what I am experiencing. Though it isn't just men that this kind of thinking affects, there are more women who seem to want more teaching with substance.
After thinking about the matter for a while, something that I have heard quite a few times comes to mind.
This may or may not be related, but if it is, it would seem that many just don't see a practical use for in-depth theology teaching etc.
I am a Baptist and am a big advocate of teaching catechistically, however many are scared away from words like "catechism" because they feel it relates to Roman Catholicism.
I have even mentioned this to my last pastor, but I didn't get a response.

Tom

I'm sorry Joe, but you seem to be contradicting yourself here just a little.



I still firmly believe that. If it happens to be a case where the pastor has his hands tied behind his back because the rest of the congregation encluding the church leaders don't agree with him, then it would be a situation where the pastor might have to consider moving.

But in most cases, the pastor has and in my opinion should have a lot of authority in the church. So his leading, teaching, preaching, praying and directing should, as Joe has stated above, move the church leaders in the right direction. But ultimately it's the pastor's responsibility to make sure that other church leaders are trained properly.

I do agree however that the pastor shouldn't be the only one teaching or involved in every event or class. This is impossible and that is why he needs to be sure that there are leaders trained to do this ministry by exercising these types of gifts and talents.

To answer Jeff's question earlier, If there is a situation where a classes attendance drops off, then I believe it could be a couple of different reasons.

1. The class might just be very dry and strictly doctrinal and over everyone's head. This could be a real possibility. That is why it is important to constantly try to gauge where the majority of your congregation is at and at what level you should teach at. But more then that, adult education is not easy. It requires work and good teaching skills. But, with saying that, I believe that there are many good resources available now that makes the job of holding a good adult Sunday school class easier. Heck, you could use Sprouls stuff for years.

2. Or another reason, and the reason I believe we are looking at here, is that the congregation are not hearing the gospel preached to them with conviction on Sunday. Thus, they are not in a position to allow the Spirit of God to work in their hearts and they are not born again. They do not want to repent of their sins and they do not want to walk with God obediently to please Him and give Him glory. They do not want to fight indwellilng sin in there lives and they do not want walk further towards the light of truth. I'm sorry, but this is my assessment of any church who doesn't have the majority of it's congregation wanting to grow spiritually.

I attended a PCUSA church who had a woman pastor who was the head of the adult education. She was very neo-orthodox, she was single, a femanist and very liberal. I was continually amazed at the foolish material the adult education committee would choose for adult education. I was also very disappointed at the very few members who would be faithful attendees. Well anyway, I won't get into it, but it is a sad situation in that church.

In my opinion, adult education is just as important then worship and preaching. There is so much to learn about our faith that it requires a lot of effort on our part to further our growth. Sound teaching on doctrine and theology are essential for us to renew our minds and allow us to stand firm in our faith and to grow in our love for God's Word.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Dave.

J Edwards,
I think in rethinking this, I was wrong. Others besides the Pastor CAN teach (not preach as they would not be CALLED), but must be trained. In other words they must be theologians, amateur or professional. I was basing my opinions on the subject on experience, namely that of awful lay teachers, not Scripture.

Steve

If by separate offices you mean
1) a Pastor must be a teacher
2) a teacher need not be a Pastor
then yes, I would concur.

Steve

Sorry Puritan I wasn’t responding to YOUR post, but li0scc0’s. There is no contradiction in what I posted. The PASTOR is NOT the sole teacher in the church (Acts 13:1, etc). His job is to reduplicate himself so others can teach. Hopefully, others that pastored before him did the same and thus teachers are already established, et. al. Just because a pastor is not teaching a class DOES NOT mean he does not know what is going on in it (or at least it shouldn’t; however with the home church movement …).

Tom,

Okay...... so you admittedly don't know THE answer, if in fact there is only one answer to the question. But, what do you think might be some of the reasons for the lack of attendance to classes or meetings by men where theology/doctrine and/or catechetical studies are held?

In His grace,

Boanerges,

Though I agree with your conclusion <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" /> that Pastors are not the only teachers in the church, I would not use Eph 4:11 as a defense. "Pastors and teachers" here share a singular article ("the" pastor and teacher) and thus actually speak of ONE office-the pastor. Most of the English versions of this text do it little justice. The Message does better here....

I was fully aware that you were not responding to my post.

In your post, it seemed as if you WERE contradicting yourself.

But, it doesn't matter, because we both are in agreement in that the pastor is responsible for making sure that the church leaders are properly trained.

I believe that is why ultimatly, the congregation tends to put "all the pressure" on the pastor. In which, I concure, I think that most of the pressure should be placed on the Pastor, because he is the one who has gone through seminary and should be the first person anyone looks too for direction. He's the captain of the ship.


Dave.

Johnnie,

I think that Joe, Steve, et al have hit most of the salient and practical reasons why there may be low to no attendance by men to classes where theology, doctrine or catechetical training is offered.

• Leadership:
  - Lack of sound preaching from the pulpit, either in quality and/or quantity.
  - Failure to train and prepare the Elders or laymen who exhibit the gift of teaching.
  - Failure of oversight by the Elder(s) of the church's teaching.
  - Lack of spiritual life in the Pastor and/or Elders.
  - Summed up in Hosea 4:6, 7; Jer 2:8; 8:8, 9; Mal 2:7, 8; Matt 23:16-26; Acts 20:28
• Laity:
  - Immaturity in the faith
  - Spiritually dead
  - Failure to make their desire for such teaching known to their Pastor/Elders.
  - Failure to set priorities in their homes and/or their personal lives that includes study.
  - Summed up in John 8:31; 1Cor 3:1-3; Heb 5:12-14; 1Pet 2:2, 3

There are doubtless other reasons which could be added. But even so, none I fear would be complimentary nor serve to excuse completely the lack of theological, doctrinal, biblical teaching. For if nothing else, one can study at home on one's own time.

In His grace,