1. What is the nature of the authority of a deacon? Is it the kind of authority Paul is talking about in Timothy. I think a case can be made that it is not.
2. Who is qualified to be a deacon? There are various views on this and although I incline against women being qualified I know the translation of the relevant passages is not clear cut. At present that's an issue I am willing to sit on the fence about since my time and energy is better spent working on more important issues.
Then we come to practical outworkings of this (on which we may well have to differ graciously).
1. Is this the thin end of the wedge? Well the RPCNA has female deacons and I don't think they are on the road to liberalism! Of course this question has to be answered on a case by case basis and the mere fact of having women deacons does not necessarily mean liberalism is around the corner.
2. Whether serving as a deacon is likely to clarify or obscure gender roles. Prior to my being a deacon the church has on rare occasions (maybe once a year) allowed a woman to preach. Having discussed my views with my pastor, although he would not be so clear on the issue as me he will not have women preaching now because of the strength of my views. That's a start. He and I still have some conversations to finish on this topic so don't be too hard on him yet. He's had a very full year helping his wife with her cancer and now going through treatment himself. God is patient and I'm happy to take time over this. We hope to meet to continue talking after his treatment, so probably August or September.
I think the issue here is not whether a church has got all these issues straight but whether they are willing to work through these matters and think afresh rather than to stridently adopt a feminist agenda. Now our church has a lot of poorly taught Christians in it and it will take time to help them grow in discipleship. I don't think the first matter to address is female deacons. Other issues are much higher on the agenda and must be dealt with first.
3. Don't forget you are very lucky Americans with a plethora of confessional Reformed churches to visit. My nearest is 35 miles away in a different county. Before you say that isn't far remember this is England. It's a smaller country with a much higher population density and much longer history and hence much stronger local identities. It would be very odd culturally for any Christian to travel so far to go to church.
4. I am highly committed to the Reformed faith and also to seeing Reformation in churches that are not yet Reformed. That is a glorious, difficult work to be involved in but one which seeks to give expression to Jesus' new commandment.
In reply to:1. Who is qualified to be a deacon? There are various views on this and although I incline against women being qualified I know the translation of the relevant passages is not clear cut. At present that's an issue I am willing to sit on the fence about since my time and energy is better spent working on more important issues.
The husband of one wife is pretty clear cut.
In reply to:1. Is this the thin end of the wedge? Well the RPCNA has female deacons and I don't think they are on the road to liberalism! Of course this question has to be answered on a case by case basis and the mere fact of having women deacons does not necessarily mean liberalism is around the corner.
Changing Scripture to suit the times gives rise to other violations of Scripture later.
In reply to: 2. Whether serving as a deacon is likely to clarify or obscure gender roles. Prior to my being a deacon the church has on rare occasions (maybe once a year) allowed a woman to preach. Having discussed my views with my pastor, although he would not be so clear on the issue as me he will not have women preaching now because of the strength of my views. That's a start. He and I still have some conversations to finish on this topic so don't be too hard on him yet. He's had a very full year helping his wife with her cancer and now going through treatment himself. God is patient and I'm happy to take time over this. We hope to meet to continue talking after his treatment, so probably August or September.
See answer above.
In reply to:I think the issue here is not whether a church has got all these issues straight but whether they are willing to work through these matters and think afresh rather than to stridently adopt a feminist agenda. Now our church has a lot of poorly taught Christians in it and it will take time to help them grow in discipleship. I don't think the first matter to address is female deacons. Other issues are much higher on the agenda and must be dealt with first.
Having a biblical leadership is one of the ways one may address other issues in the church more biblically. This should be priority #1. Without biblical leadership how can you expect biblical change?
In reply to:3. Don't forget you are very lucky Americans with a plethora of confessional Reformed churches to visit. My nearest is 35 miles away in a different county. Before you say that isn't far remember this is England. It's a smaller country with a much higher population density and much longer history and hence much stronger local identities. It would be very odd cuturally for any Christian to travel so far to go to church.
Why not consider beginning a new one locally (missionary churches with established groups are allowed in England aren't they?). BTW I lived in England for app. 2 years (I was there again, app. three years ago), and the traffic there is similar to Atlanta, or any other larger city in the U.S. 45 min-1.5 hour commutes are the norm there. Your cultural identity is that of a Christian.
We will be in prayer for your situation. Indeed it is a difficult one to be in. God will rise up a church or change one to have the faith once delivered to the saints preached in its fullness. Don't settle for less than the full truth!
working to change a church to become more biblical is what I am seeking prayerfully to do. Our pastor did introduce elders into his prevous church so it may be something which will be addressed in due course. My passion is for evangelical unity and that is what I will continue to strive for.
As for planting a church I have no lawful calling from any church to do so. In any case there are much needier towns near us without even a church at the level of the one I serve.
Is my culture Christian? No, I'm culturally British. I don't believe there is any such thing as a Christian culture, but that's for another thread. The issue on travel isn't traffic but the strength of local attachment to community. That's part of my culture. It's not the same in America generally speaking.
In reply to:Is my culture Christian? No, I'm culturally British. I don't believe there is any such thing as a Christian culture, but that's for another thread. The issue on travel isn't traffic but the strength of local attachment to community. That's part of my culture. It's not the same in America generally speaking.
I was being philosophical. You are an alien here and belong to a Christian culture up there!!!
Let me first assure you that my intention in engaging you in this discussion is not to attack YOU as an individual. I do sympathize with your situation and share in your optimism that what you have been doing with your pastor in the hopes of reforming your particular congregation will bear fruit. My objection is to the doctrine of the Deaconate and the biblical evidence that supports the traditional position as opposed to the neo-evangelical position.
In reply to:1. What is the nature of the authority of a deacon? Is it the kind of authority Paul is talking about in Timothy. I think a case can be made that it is not.
I think this is at least the third time I will have dealt with this argument and I hope it will be the last. The "authority" of those who serve in the Deaconate is an ancillary issue and must be considered only AFTER one has established the qualifications for that office. What a Deacon DOES cannot determine WHO is qualified to function as a Deacon. Thus, the responsibilities of the office apply only to those who are qualified to serve.
Now, the two major biblical texts, taken in their respective contexts and by a plain reading of the texts clearly show that Paul has men in mind. The grammar simply cannot be twisted to allow women to be included. As I and others have pointed out, "husband of one wife" and the prolific use of the pronoun "he" throughout the passages cannot be dismissed or be twisted around with today's political correctness and/or feministic philosophy. The further fact that Paul says, "and the women likewise must be. . ." shows that there is a clear distinction between male and female. And, it is to the men that Paul address all but this one statement to women, and sets forth the specific qualifications for the offices of Elder and Deacon. Yes, I am more than familiar with the various attempts to explain away the "maleness" of Paul's words. But, in all honesty, I would hope you would see that if this type of sophistry was used on any other well-established doctrine, e.g., the depravity of man, justification by faith, etc., you would summarily reject those arguments as spurious. For some reason, and I do have my own thoughts as to why this is being done, women in office is being given the emphasis today.
Lastly, I must confess that I cannot accept your reasoning that by serving as a Deacon along side of this woman who is illegitimately occupying the same office, you would somehow be unable to minister to your pastor, who by this time has surely become a personal friend. It seems to me that as a friend, your wise counsel would not be diminished but contrariwise more firmly established as you would be seen as someone who desires to walk by Scriptural teaching and not by the trends of the day. I believe that this is part of what Paul means by those who serve must be of "good report".
May God guide you and speak to your heart clearly in this matter in the days ahead so that you will be firmly established in His Word and walk by faith and not by sight.
Matthew 5:16 (KJV) "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
The "authority" of those who serve in the Deaconate is an ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif)
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