The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Babies and Election

I agree with you Joe about big Mac.
There are not too many Christians I respect more than John MacArthur, but on this topic I think he is guilty of speculation and giving into his emotions. As you may or may not be aware even the great preacher CH Spurgeon held the same view that big Mac holds.
So it just goes to show that we should not take the word of even the best of theologians and pastors. We need to search the scriptures ourselves to make certain what the Bible is saying on a given topic.
We should also realize that this side of heaven, none of us will be absolutely right on all topics.

Tom

Biblical divine election is "unconditional", i.e., without respect to the individual whatsoever. I certainly wouldn't classify that as being "hard line".

Thus, there is nothing in reference to the individual, regardless of age, mental condition, etc., which can be a factor. God's determination to save sinners is solely a decision based upon His own good pleasure and for His glory. Therefore, in regard to unborn infants, and all others who are mentally incapable of hearing and/or comprehending the Gospel their condition is a mute issue. For it is God the Spirit Who regenerates the dead soul of all and in doing so enables the individual to seek God and be united to Him in Christ.

We as humans tend to look upon infants, the elderly, and the handicapped as being "special" and deserving of special treatment, e.g., infants are universally perceived as being "innocent". Yet, this is NOT how God looks upon these groups. What He "sees" is the sin nature which of necessity classifies all men, women and children, yes even the unborn as enemies who are worthy of condemnation. Fortunately, God has not consigned all to their just condemnation but for reasons that are His own, He has decreed that some would be shown mercy at the inestimable cost of the crucifixion of Christ. That even one single individual is redeemed is and should be incomprehensible.

Has God determined to save any of the unborn who die in infancy? (remember it is the Lord Himself Who gives life and takes life according to His eternal counsel) I believe there is sufficient evidence in the Bible to at least suggest He does. Is there, however, any indication that any particular "group" or "class" of people are universally included in God's election? Personally, I cannot find such evidence. And evidently, neither could the framers of the Westminster Confession of Faith. And so they wisely wrote in Chapter 10:

III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12
13. John 3:8
14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12

The exact number of such infants and others incapable of being outwardly called is not revealed and therefore impossible to know. What we DO know are three irrefutable facts: 1) ALL are born in sin and have imputed to them the guilt of Adam's transgressions and inherit a corruption of nature. Thus we ALL are born children of wrath. 2) God has determined in eternity by His own immutable counsel that some of Adam's fallen race should be rescued from their just condemnation and redeemed in Christ. And, 3) The Judge of all the earth will surely do right. Thus not one individual will receive injustice at the hand of God. ALL will receive either the just punishment due, in themselves, or by God's perfect substitute, the Lamb of God Who suffered in behalf of all those whom the Father gave Him.

In His grace,

I agree with Pilgrim’s post. I will just add that “if” mankind knew all infants without exception were elect then that would change the face of evangelism for some. Our abortion clinics would be full—for in murdering infants they would be definitely sending them to heaven. However, God does not look at the murder of infants as “good.” He punished Israel for partaking in child sacrifices (Leviticus 18:21; 2 Kings 16:2-3; 17:7, 16-18; Jeremiah 32:35, et. al.).

Can God save an infant? Of course, He can. However, we are not guaranteed that He elected each and everyone in His eternal counsel and it would be very presumptuous to think He did with such texts as Romans 9:13, 15, 18, 21 and 22. Remember, “The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies” (Psalm 58:3) and you were “called a transgressor from the womb” (Isaiah 48:8).

Yes but what did Mayor MacCheese believe? How about the Hamburglar? Course he was a thief so he was probably an Arminian so who cares. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />

You forgot Grimace.

You nailed that one Pilgrim.

Somehow that feels like a John Wayne quote.

Sorry I am not an expert on Macology. However, other fast food ologies such as, "please hold the pickle, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us" or "Have it your own way" are Arminian in content.

Well truth is David I remembered what he looked like but for the life of me couldn't remember his name. Must be getting old.