The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Gods will!

John,

Perhaps your consternation is due to a latent refusal or lack of true understanding of the seriousness and depth of sin, aka: the doctrine of total depravity? Let me put it to you oh so simply. The ONLY reason that anyone ever does a "good thing", whether it is relative (unregenerate actions) or actual (regenerate actions, which even they are woefully imperfect), is because the Spirit of God's influence which is in complete harmony with God's eternal decree. ALL things are of God's decree and for the ultimate purpose of bringing glory to Him. We may not fully or even partially comprehend how the works of evil can glorify God, but they do so infallibly, for all the works of God are perfect. (Deut 32:4)

This subject is not dissimilar to that of the matter of the Origin of Sin. The question ultimately arises, "How could a perfectly holy God allow, never mind decree, the fall of Satan and the myriad holy angels? And how could He likewise allow, never mind decree, the fall of man? The answer is always, "for His own glory"!

Now, returning to my first point..... God's decree for a Christian to sin is in no wise in violation of His "Prescriptive Will", for the disobedience done (aka: sin) is not forced upon an individual but rather it is done most freely and willingly. Should God withdraw His hand for even a moment of time, the entire world would be immediately transformed into chaos and utter destruction. For anyone to think that they would never to "this" or "that" is sheer pride and to give credit to themselves where there is no credit to own. The sin nature in man, even when it has been overtaken by a new created nature is incredibly powerful and wicked. The Lord simply uses that natural inclination of men's hearts to accomplish a greater good and ultimately again, for His own glory.

Let me finish this little excursus by referring you to a marvelous example in God's Word. I will always remember reading this passage with opened eyes, having read it many times before and paying it little attention. The passage is found in Genesis 20:1-7. And the key phrase I would have you meditate on is this one found in verse 6:

ENJOY!!

In His grace,

Thanks Joe and Pilgrim for your replies.

I am not arguiing against God's Sovereinty in all matters of life. He is our Sovereign God; just trying to get a better understanding of the the mechanics of God's Will, so to speak. In looking back with my post I didn't really mean Plan 'B' per se, but used it because of Pilgrim's post earlier.

I know your answer will be the same, but the word I meant to use is 'contingency' Is it possible for God to set His Sovereign Will to rely on certain contingencies based upon our response? Dr. Nash wrote a paper sevearal years ago on contingencies, but probably not in regards to my inquiry.

How does secondary causes come into play with God's Will?

I know you post at IIIM. Ask Ra about Pratt’s, “Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions.” He will do better explaining it then I (i.e. my answer will be long and complex).

Pratt does a good job here of showing in the OT how our individual will interacts with God's. He concentrates on "our will" more so than on "God's will" which I believe is what you are seeking an answer to. Note that I still have problems and disagree with such phrases as, “God often waits to see what his human subjects will do and directs the future on the basis of what they decide,” and "In fact, we will see that Yahweh often spoke through his prophets, watched the reactions of people, and then determined how to carry through with his declarations, as God already knows what choice they will make. But, statements such as “Old Testament prophets revealed the word of the unchanging Yahweh, but prophets spoke for God in space and time, not before the foundations of the world. By definition, therefore, they did not utter immutable decrees, but providential declarations,” help me understanding much more of the OT and thus life in general.

Hope this helps.

John,

Let me be perfectly honest and just plain blunt. IF <------ what you have asked about, i.e., "contingencies" or "Plan B" or anything even remotely similar, if they were true, then the very definition of God Himself would be transgressed and denied. This is why I can confidently say although with great sorrow, that the vast majority of not only the unbelieving people on this earth but also those professing to be Christians "worship" a different God than I do. My God, the LORD God of the universe, the God Who revealed Himself through creation, the written Scriptures and in Jesus Christ, is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent in the fullest sense of those terms.

I believe that the LORD God's "foreknowledge" of all things is the natural result and expression of His eternal determinate council, i.e., whatever God has determined to do from all eternity (DECREE) is what He knows. It is (fore)knowledge only in relation to time and space, i.e., before it is brought to pass in that element called history, which is that which only belongs to and within which finite things exist. So, again but short and sweet, God knows all things only and just because He has decreed them. And He has decreed ALL things from and in eternity. There isn't even the slightest movement of the smallest particle of matter which God has created that hasn't been eternally determined (aka: foreordained). There is not one thought, word, feeling or deed from any human being that hasn't been eternally determined by God. THIS my friend, is what "Omnipotent" means. The one true God, the God of the Bible, is not only sovereign in power but also in authority. The apostle Paul certainly understood these things and was overwhelmed by the truth of them. And thus he wrote:

Romans 11:33-36 (ASV) "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him [be] the glory for ever. Amen."

Now, what about these "secondary causes"?? Simply put, John, look at them as God's "tools" . . . they are the means by which the eternal foreordination (DECREE) is applied and brought to pass in time. They are under the complete control of the MASTER's hand, much as a chisel is used by a master carver. There is first a "plan" and then it is brought to reality. The "blueprint" for the universe is not kinetic nor based upon contingencies determined by finite creatures but it is immutable; it has been carved in stone, so to speak. Of course, this truth tends to boggle the mind of those who seek after truth. Yet it is firmly grasped by faith and is the source of comfort and hope in all things. But, this same truth is seen as sheer foolishness by those who are perishing. They refuse to bow before this sovereign God. Instead they choose to create a "god" after their own liking which allows them "freedom"; a freedom to choose that which is totally opposed to God's will and further that this "god" then reacts to their creaturely wills and changes what was originally planned by him (hoped would happen is more accurate). This idol of the mind is said to be able to get what he wants in the end because he has full access to every kind of "contingency" and "knowledge" about how everyone will react to every situation. Their "god" reminds me of a Border Collie herding sheep. The sheep are determined to go their own way, but the dog cuts them off from going in all directions by jumping in front of them and driving them back by incredibly fast moves and loud barking. Eventually, the sheep are "coaxed" to the owner's final destination due to the superior ability of the dog.

This is the truth, brother: 1) God is totally, absolutely, indisputably SOVEREIGN. There is NOTHING.... NOTHING that God has not decreed/foreordained in eternity. ALL THINGS are the result of His eternal determinate council and ALL THINGS happen according to His good pleasure. 2) Man is totally, absolutely and indisputably RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING he/she thinks, feels and does. No one is ever compelled to do that which is contrary to his/her will. ALL THINGS flow out of their own selves most naturally and freely.

The LORD God's: DECREE - FOREORDINATION - FOREKNOWLEDGE - PREDESTINATION - ELECTION - REPROBATION has never forced any human being to do anything against their will. But no human being has ever thought, felt or done anything that wasn't determined from all eternity by God's decree.

Should you ever come across someone who tells you that they have figured out how these two truths work together, then you should immediately fall to your knees and worship him for He will be none other than the LORD Jesus Christ; God in the flesh... OR in every other case, you should simply smile and say something like, "Good for you!!" We humans with our infant brains will never be able to comprehend the infinite mind of God. There are just some things beyond us. Yeh, I know, there are some who would dispute that statement and believe that through logic and reason there isn't anything that can't be known. I suppose one could say that between those types of people and myself we know everything in the universe that can be known.... They know everything except they are complete morons and I am the one who knows that.

In His grace,

Pilgrim,


I take it you don't think much of "Open Theism"? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for this beautiful post. It is illogical and irrational for men to disbelieve in our God's absolute omnipotent sovereignty. Some say that it would be unjust or unfair for God to hold men responsible for their sins if He has already decreed all. When men say this they are really saying that they know better or are a better judge than God, OR they are saying that God Himself has a higher and more just God. Both of these idiocies are blasphemous.

We are responsible for our behavior and sins simply because God says that we are in His words and He is sovereign Lord.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

dear Pilgrim, Just want to thank you for that wonderful and blessed Truth of God's absolute Sovereignty - clearly put.

Amen and Amen! English Rose

I like the way you put that, God is control of Good and evil, he ordains sin, yet he is without sin...

excellent post , it is truly a blessing to read that God has given you a knowledge of Himself and His Deity. He deserves our praise and adoration , forever and forever !

So true brother pilgrim..