The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Saved and NOT know it ???

Thank-you Pilgrim and William.

If the work of Christ is complete, from eternity then it makes perfect sense to say that 'making our calling and election sure' and 'striving to enter into the rest' and 'working out our salvation with fear and trembling' does mean that we may experience intial joy at the forgiveness of sins, but then the struggle to learn to 'walk in the Spirit' to remain, 'In the liberty of the Spirit' etc means that eventually when we learn that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that HE will never lose one of those whom the Father has given Him, shows that the weaknesss in agreeing, in reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, or as Paul says dead to this world and the world to us by the cross (the completed work of the Lord), shows the eternal position of salvation. He does not half have us, but has us in His book, written by the blood that was spilled from the foundation of the world. I had for many years found myself half believing in his work, and credited some to history, as in when it happened in the historical sense. However, in meeting Him I understand that His love is not bound by time, but that He has always from eternity loved His saints.

I appreciate the effort on both of your part and I hope that you will not find my ideas to out there. I will read the article and will hopefully find time to get back here, but for now I have some work to attend to in the book of Daniel and then on to Hosea.

Shalom to you both,

The Straw.

Straw, I have no problem with what you believe. I'd rather someone be one sided in the right direction.

William

Straw,

Just in case you are still hanging on to the idea of "eternal salvation", which from the decretal standpoint is true but also true from the perspective of an elect individual, those texts which you referred to must be taken in context. That context is from the standpoint of one who has been justified, i.e., one who has been regenerated, received a new nature, experienced conviction of sin and consequently believed upon Christ. In other words, they apply ONLY to those who have already been united to Christ in space and time. They do not apply to anyone else; elect or not. Again, until what God has foreordained, predestined comes to pass in time, it cannot be said to exist. Perhaps if you consider that the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ was foreordained in eternity, it cannot be said that He suffered, died and rose from the dead in eternity. The Son of God had to first be joined with His human body being born of the virgin Mary, grow in years, and then be crucified and finally resurrected from the dead for it to be "real".

God's eternal predestination/election doesn't save anyone in and of itself. That which is fixed in eternity includes both the end AND the means to that end! And until the "means" come to pass, that end does not exist regardless of the fact that it is eternally declared and will infallibly come to pass. If this were not true, then it would not be necessary for the elect to repent and believe upon Christ unto salvation. The Gospel would not have to be preached to the world in order to gather the elect unto Christ. And, even more so, it would not have been necessary for the Son of God to join Himself to human flesh, be crucified and resurrected in order to make atonement for those predestinated to salvation in Him.

I do hope you can grasp the importance of this truth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here are a couple of articles which deal directly with this issue.

1) Eternal Justification, by Louis Berkhof

2) Justification From Eternity, by G.C. Berkouwer

In His grace,

Thanks for making your thoughts so open and crystal clear. I do understand your ideas perfectly well, and agree with them entirely, but am a little bit fuzzy about this ideas you have of 'joined to His human body' and again 'join Himself to human flesh'. I am not sure if these terms are the same as 'became flesh' For the Son of God was an entirely new being, and as the Apostle Paul calls Him, 'the last Adam - a life giving spirit' Not that He was not fully human, but also that He was both God and man, and the 'first born', the only 'begotten'. This seems to be coming along with the discussion and I just want clarity on this point.

William, regarding the matter of 'Justification by Faith alone' and a subject that I am more than familiar with, I have moved to a stronger tower against the Ecumenical position, namely 'Justification by Christ alone'. It is just that with equivocation has made this doctrine difficult to 'dilineate' (I think my word might be wrong...what I mean is the position of terms like 'justify' and 'faith' have been so twisted, that concentrating on the 'Pre-eminence or Christ' brings the conflict more sharply to a head, with those who are beginning to submit to the Papal Office as being the dominant office. I hope this is not confusing.)

So it is that I have taken the stance of the Puritan; making Christ the central focus of all doctrine, and just shortening the route. Instead of Justification by Faith alone, I move as in Chess to the heart of the matter. After all it is Christ who justifies, by grace through faith, it is most certainly NOT of ourselves 'in any way whatever', we can lay no claim to justification. (this we know), and so as to make that crystal clear in the current times of unification (a worldly concept), I choose to lift the 'Saviour and Deliverer' of the saints, to a position that He has always had from eternity. The pre-emminent One.

Again just to bring forward a bit more to consider. The name Jesus in the book of Revelation does refer to the 'Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.' It is just that in so much that is being discussed, in Ecumenical circles (pun intended), there is little correct presentation of 'the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ' (which we know and understand in terms of Scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 15:1,2)

I have been looking for both the articles you mention and will attend to them with great diligence, but not before the Scriptures out of which all men, even I, are attempting to expound, 'the truth', yet 'the truth' is not simply found in the Scriptures, the Scriptures (Sola Scriptura) are themselves the 'written word of God.' Excuse the deviation.

Let me download and print both that you have put on the menu. I have already got the other one ready, and I am currently reading 'Healing the Wound' by John R. Robbins, though I have read most of this in various other lectures, being a lover of Gordon H. Clark's work, needing still to acquire 'Predestination' by the same, and all his other work.

To another topic, perhaps at some point further on, 'the nature of man', 'the image of God', 'General and Special Revelation' and 'How it is that man knows anything'. Just so you are both clear and anyone who reads. Though I have been reading and studying for 31 years, I still regard myself as 'an old fool' and 'an absolute beginner' (David Bowie) and so am going to have to spend more time reading than anything else.

I am still truncated on the matter of 'Traducianism' and 'Creationism' and the ideas relating to 'Adam's sin', the correct position of 'Eve' and the ideas of Rome concerning Mary and 'the second Eve' ideas. So much to consider and in the end, just desiring to KNOW what is the correct position.

Sidebar: Has anyone considered the work of 'Jeff Pollard' ex lead singer of Louisiana Le Roux, and how would describe his position concerning the plan of God ?

Whew, that was a gigantic fish to load, or a net to unload. I am currently entering, have entered Chapter 10 of Daniel, on my way to Malachi.

Brothers of Christ,

Straw.

ps. If all that seemed a little mixed up. Pilgrim I understsand what you have written and agree the ideas I have expressed ONLY relate to 'the elect', also that I do understand that the event in time and space, is the same covenant that was always spoken of between man and God, as revealed in all the Scriptures.

My only consideration is that prior to the event of the cross, and by that I do mean (the death, burial and resurrection), those of the elect of old, look forward in hope to this truimph, and as the writer in Hebrews says in the last passage of Chapter 11, only with us, those who are post cross, 'And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.' (Perhaps a good passage for us to hold the fort. Stand and deliver, discuss matter of 'saved and not know it...for there was a partial blindness here, as prophet, priest and King looked forward and only saw the shadow, but 'when the fullness of time came'...etc

Hence I stand on the only solid ground I know, 'Justified by the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, alone' - not leaning to 'fiath, hope or love' but to God in Christ, my redeemer, lover of my soul, Saviour and Deliverer. This I do so that I will not be deceived, should the power of Rome's equivocation swallow all that remains of the body of Christ, into the unholy alliance with those who are happy to hold out a hand of fellowship to unbelievers, as if they were already elect. My position I hope is a little clearer.

Pilgrim,
I managed to download and print Louis Berkhof's article, but the 'Justification from Eternity' by G.C.B doesn't open ? I see that your site is the only one that offers this. I started reading the first sermon and can immediately see that I am in for some 'learning'. Hold back on replying to what I wrote above unless you have found any serious loopholes in my thinking. In other words; reply or don't I am going to be doing some serious thinking here.

Off to work,

Salvation has always been - both before and after Calvary - by grace through faith in Christ. Those who lived prior to the cross looked forward with faith to the Messiah's substitutionary atonement, while we look backwards in time with faith to the cross.

Both groups of people, despite having been "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4)" were yet dead in their sins and unjustified until they believed (Heb 11:6).

-Robin

I just tried the link to G.C. Berhouwer's article and it opened fine for me. Perhaps you could try again to access it. Should that fail for you, you can download a copy in Word (.doc) format which I put in a ZIP file here: Justification From Eternity.

In His grace,

Thanks Robin, and thank-you Pilgrim, I managed to eventually get to it and now have a splendid printed out version of both articles. Yes Robin, and add what you have to what is in the last two verses of Hebrews 11, and what more comes after in 12, and then what is in Galatians, and one might understand exactly how the oath and the covenant work. I also noticed that this promise of 'a new and better way' was infact offered throughout but only came to pass in time a little over two thousand years ago. Does Salvation need to be experienced before it is effective, is another point to consider here. Which makes it binding, the oath that God made to himself or our acceptance of it, or is there even the chance that we can accept what we are born into not by birth, or man, but by God.

It is only in this sense that I am still convinced that we can be saved and not know it.

I am going to withdraw at this point, mainly for work and secondly to read all the pertinent information on this topic that you, Pilgrim, have link and kindly made available as a zip.

Straw,

Methinks you are confusing the "ground" of salvation and the "effectual means" of salvation. As to the first, the "ground" is the vicarious atoning work of Christ which was foreordained before the foundation of the world. But the "effectual means" of salvation is what brings a sinner into union with Christ by faith. Until a person is regenerated, convicted of sin, and brought to faith in Christ, that person remains under the wrath of God. One cannot be saved without repentance and faith, which are simply two sides of the same coin. One can similarly look at the atonement of Christ in the same manner. The sufficiency of Christ's death and resurrection in behalf of the elect doesn't save anyone in and of itself UNTIL it is applied to them. This application of the atonement is the work of the Holy Spirit in time, in which the sinner is given a new nature and made both able and willing to believe upon the Lord Christ unto justification. Unless this happens; where the sinner is united with Christ by faith and thus clothed with His righteousness; aka: imputation of Christ's righteousness, there is no salvation to be had, either conscious of unconscious.

An excellent book I would recommend to you on this subject is John Murray's Redemption Accomplished and Applied. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

"Election is no mere decree; it is not simply a choice of God. But the decree of election is the living will of the Lord God to save His people; and the whole of their salvation, including all the means and the way to final glory is included in the decree." Homer C. Hoeksema



[color:"0000FF"]PORTIONS OF THE "GREAT" SYNOD OF DORDT
FIRST HEAD OF DOCTRINE
Of Divine Predestination[/color]

[color:"0000FF"]Article 9[/color] . . . therefore election is the fountain of every saving good; from which proceed faith, holiness, and the other gifts of salvation, and finally eternal life itself, as its fruits and effects, according to that of the apostle: "He hath chosen us (not because we were) but that we should be holy, and without blame, before him in love,"
[color:"0000FF"]Article 7[/color] . . . God hath decreed to give to Christ, to be saved by him, and effectually to call and draw them to his communion by his Word and Spirit, to bestow upon them true faith, justification and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of his Son, finally, to glorify them for the demonstration of his mercy, . . .





Faith is the God-given bond of the union with Christ. The activity which proceeds from that bond is the act of believing, whereby one consciously clings to Christ, the only begotten Son of God, as the revelation of God's redemptive love. That faith, as a bond and as a power and as an activity, is not of ourselves: it is the gift of God, bestowed sovereignly upon all the elect members of that world that God saves in redemptive love
Homer C. Hoeksema "GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD . . ."

[color:"0000FF"]Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28 A.V.
¶ Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:1 A.V.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Galations 3:24 A.V.[/color]

William



.

Thank-you both for your ideas and the references. I have started a new thread exploring the idea of 'responsible vs accountable' and look forward to reading your thoughts on the ideas of Robert R. Higby of Predestinarian.net. (Duty Faith)

Straw,

Well..... Hmmmm IF this is where your questions are coming from, then things have become clear. Mr. Higby is a hyper-Calvinist Baptist who also holds to some unorthodox views. Here is most of the information contained in his "Profile". My comments are in red.

Religion / Church Affiliation:
High Grace Predestinarian [color:"red"]<----- hyper-Calvinism[/color]
Soteriological Position:
Calvinism (Supralapsarian)
Eschatological Position:
Historicist/Amillennial
Covenantal Position:
Modified Covenant Theology (MCT)
Creeds and Confessions:
London Baptist Confession of 1644, Canons of Dort, Gospel Standard Articles of Faith
Are some men elected to salvation?:
Yes
Are some men elected to damnation?:
Yes
Is salvation by works?:
No
Do men have free will?:
No
Is salvation offered to all who hear the Gospel?:
No [color:"red"]<----- hyper-Calvinism[/color]
God wants all men to be saved?:
No
Salvation dependent upon acceptance of truth?:
No
Jesus died for all men?:
No
God loves all men?:
No
Christ experienced sin in His person?:
No
Was sin imputed or imparted to Christ?:
Imputed
Is righteousness imputed or imparted to believers?:
Imputed
God predestines all things, including sin?:
Yes
God wanted Adam to fall into sin?:
Yes
God has how many wills?:
One (His decretive will of purpose is His will of pleasure)
When is righteousness imputed to the elect?:
At the cross
Do you believe in Justification from Eternity?:
Yes
God hates the elect at some point in time?:
No
God loves the reprobate?:
No
God's will is mutable?:
No
Tithing is obligatory?:
No
Baptism is required for salvation?:
No
Baptism is the sign of the new covenant?:
No
James part of the "canon?":
I don't believe it should be part of the canon. [color:"red"]<----- Unorthodoxy[/color]
Definition of Faith:
It is simply mental assent to the truth. [color:"red"]<----- Sandemanianism[/color]
Is there such a thing as a "Dead Faith?":
No, there is no such thing as a "dead faith" because those who give mental assent to the truth will undoubtedly perform good works.
Assurance:
The Spirit graciously gives assurance to those who assent to the truth. Good works have no part in producing assurance in an individual.
Agreement:
I have answered all of these questions to the best of my knowledge.

I am not going to get into that monothelete vs dithelete stuff. I think it is more interesting as to how the two are one person and the consideration of how we are born-again in light of the incarnation. Amazing stuff.

Backing up, Pilgrim in the WCF and other good Reformed confession it speaks to the salvation of the "elect infants who dying in infancy are saved." Not the exact wording but close enough. Recently, I have run afoul of those who think that cognition is necessary to salvation.

There is disagreement among some as to what exactly is the ordo salutis, and here I do not want to examine that. I am merely asking what you believe is the case. Is cognition a necessary condition of salvation?

I realize the question is directed at Pilgrim, but I have no doubt that God saves even those without cognition as we know it. Consider the unborn John the Baptist, leaping in the womb for joy upon the meeting of his mother and Mary (Luke 1:44). Consider also who the elect are according to the Scriptures:


-Robin

Robin,

Yes, Calvinists although divided on the matter of the salvation of infants or elect infants, all agree that there is a distinction to be made between infants and adults. I personally hold that the Spirit of God communicates to infants who are saved (elect infants which do not include all covenant children or even just covenant children for God's election is Unconditional) a knowledge of Christ and imparts to them a new nature which unites with Christ effecting their salvation.

However, for children and adults "cognition" is most necessary. But in opposition to those who hold to Sandemanianism (Easy Believism) to one degree or another, it is not enough to have simple knowledge of the Gospel and/or Christ to be saved. One's entire being must be changed, i.e., one's mind, emotions and will must be involved. This is what regeneration accomplishes. In regeneration a new nature is created. The soul is "resurrected", made alive so that the sinner is made able to love the Lord God with all one's heart, mind, soul and strength, which is required of God. But to do what the law requires in this regard, one must first be reconciled to God through the one Mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ Who paid the penalty required by law and Whose righteousness must be imputed; justification.

We do have a few exceptions given to us in Scripture, e.g., Jeremiah and John the Baptist who were regenerated in the womb vs. the rest of mankind (elect) who are regenerated after birth in God's good time according to His purpose. But in all cases, the regeneration effects the whole being and not just the mind.

In His grace,