The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Holy Hip-Hop?

Evangelist,

First of all, Welcome to the Discussion Board.

1) It doesn't matter what "some people think" in regard to money. What matters is what God thinks. Nowhere in Scripture is there a direct statement which teaches that money, in and of itself, is evil. Nor is there to be found a principle that implies that having or using money is evil. What we do find is that the "love of money" is the root of all kinds of evil, which is a violation of the 10th Commandment.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 (ASV) "But they that are minded to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and hurtful lusts, such as drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

2) Your allowance of Rap, Hip-Hop, and other contemporary musical styles is apparently based upon: 1) pragmatism and 2) a misunderstanding about what it means to "glorify" God. The first has to be rejected out of hand as it has no basis whatsoever in Scripture, i.e., pragmatism is firmly grounded in relativism rather than propositional truth. The second, similar to pragmatism, is a very popular position but likewise unbiblical since invariably it entails doing whatever one thinks is useful, good, enjoyable, etc., and tacking on to it one's alleged intentions to "glorify God". This self-determined "glorification" of God has been around for several millennia. The first occurrence we read of it is found in Genesis 4:

Genesis 4:3-7 (ASV) "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto Jehovah. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering: but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And Jehovah said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be its desire, but do thou rule over it."

Although the context above is in regard to the formal worship of God, it surely is applicable to everything we think, say and do, for in such are we enjoined to glorify God. (1Cor 10:31). So what was the problem with Cain's offering? It is obvious that Abel had brought before the Lord an offering which was acceptable since it was as God had commanded. And Cain brought an offering which HE THOUGHT was acceptable. Cain took it upon himself to put himself above God by first rejecting the will of God, for whatever reason, and substituting his own ideas of what was good and acceptable, aka: glorifying to God. Consequently, Cain's offering, regardless if it meant with 'good intentions', was met with serious rejection.

As I have written above and at length in other replies in the past, to "glorify" God is to express and/or conform one's life to God as He Himself has revealed His being, nature and attributes. This is what the Lord Christ's entire earthly life exuded. (Is. 60:1, 2; Jh 1:14; Col 1:19; 2Cor 4:4-6; Heb 1:3; et al). On this basis, any and all man-made music must be scrutinized carefully; both objectively and subjectively. One should ask such questions as, does the music reflect the revealed nature of God? Which of God's attribute(s) does the music mirror? Is excellence in composition to be found in it? To what does the music mainly appeal, e.g., the base emotions? or is it only complimentary to the lyrics? Is there some particular genre which the music is associated with which is not of God? . . . etc.

Music itself is part of the creation and thus something which is good in and of itself. But the music which men create is not necessarily of God, if for no other reason, because men are inherently sinful. We are admonished not to be conformed to this world, nor to love the things of this world, nor to bring the world into the Church, for Christians have been called out of the world to live before God according to that which is pure, holy and good, all of which is glorifying to God.

In His grace,

Pilgrim Quotes:

1) It doesn't matter what "some people think" in regard to money. What matters is what God thinks. Nowhere in Scripture is there a direct statement which teaches that money, in and of itself, is evil. Nor is there to be found a principle that implies that having or using money is evil. What we do find is that the "love of money" is the root of all kinds of evil, which is a violation of the 10th Commandment.

Evangelist quote:
I agree with you , and this what I also meant about rap , that the love of worldly rap music can be the root of evil also.


Quote Pilgrim:

2) Your allowance of Rap, Hip-Hop, and other contemporary musical styles is apparently based upon: 1) pragmatism and 2) a misunderstanding about what it means to "glorify" God. The first has to be rejected out of hand as it has no basis whatsoever in Scripture, i.e., pragmatism is firmly grounded in relativism rather than propositional truth. The second, similar to pragmatism, is a very popular position but likewise unbiblical since invariably it entails doing whatever one thinks is useful, good, enjoyable, etc., and tacking on to it one's alleged intentions to "glorify God". This self-determined "glorification" of God has been around for several millennia. The first occurrence we read of it is found in Genesis 4:

Quote Evangelist

Do you think you can only worship God with dead music, or some funeral pipe oragan type of music?
It don't like grave yard music, as such, but I think we can with the right heart, and text worship God.

Evangelist,

Your reference to "dead music" and "grave yard music" and "funeral pipe organ" is no doubt a subjective one, which I am going to assume means any type of music which doesn't get you out of your chair and move you to dance around, etc. Therefore, I would be very interested to know how you define these terms and on what basis you have concluded that none of these types of music are allowed by God for His worship.

Secondly, do you have biblical support for using such contemporary styles of music, e.g., Rap, Hip-Hop, Rock & Roll, Blues, Jazz, et al for the worship of God and/or as a means to further a believer's sanctification which is one being conformed to the image of Christ in all righteousness and holiness?

Thanks! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Can a person worship a pipe organ music with loud drums or a tamberine?
The bible say or commands us also to dance , but that would be hard with some church music , and many songs sang out of some song music books.

Psalms:150:1: Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
Psalms:150:2: Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Psalms:150:3: Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Psalms:150:4: Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Psalms:150:5: Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Psalms:150:6: Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

God has given me also the leadership of having a international christian disco, and I've been doing this for years with anointed sucess, and many got saved and set free, in the christian disco.

I have a live video to check out there.

Amen!

Edited: Fixed the "quote" tags.

Evangelist,

1) There is no "command" to dance in the worship of God. The one verse you quoted, Ps 150:4 was in reference to "praising" God, the context of which does not apply to corporate worship.

2) The matter must be settled on the basis of sound hermeneutics, i.e., interpreting Scripture. One of the fundamental rules of such is determined by Scripture itself and which is "The Old Testament is interpreted by the New Testament". Therefore, what was commanded to the nation of Israel or that which they practiced is not necessarily applicable to the N.T. Church.

3) See this article here: Dance and Drama in Worship and Evangelism - A Contemporary Problem.

4) On the matter of what "type" of music is appropriate as determined by Scripture for both worship and casual use, see the following articles:

* A Reason to Sing - Dr. P.J. Janson
* Congregational Singing and the Ministry of the Word - Leonard Payton
* Is it a Prelude or a Quaalude - Leonard Payton
* Glossary of Church Growth & Contemporary Christian Music - Leonard Payton
* Evangelicals on the Durham Trail - Darryl Hart
* Evaluating Music for Christian Worship and Enjoyment - Leonard J. Seidel
* Rock 'n' Roll, the Bible, and the Mind - Tom Allen

6) The use of contemporary music, particularly those which are based upon a syncopated beat is diametrically opposed to the N.T. principle to worship God and live before Him with "reverence and awe". (Titus 2:11, 12; Heb. 12:28, 29)

7) The salvation of sinners is only accomplished through the Word of God which is either preached or read. (cf. Rom 1:16; 10:14-17; 1Cor 1:18-24; 2:4; Col 1:5, 6; 1Thess 1:5; 2:13; Heb 4:12-14; Jh 8:31, 32; 17:17; 1Tim 4:16; 2Tim 3:14-17)

8) There is no record in the N.T. of the Apostles or disciples using either music or dance as an evangelistic "tool".

In His grace,

Pilgrim

So are you saying we can't reach the youth with new means or new tools get witness to them or get their attention?

I know the apostle never use tv, or had nicrophone or speakers to witness through, or tracts, flyers , but can't we use these thing as tools for the gospel even though all things arer don't in the bible, even a TBN or God channel broadcast of a gospel concert?

Evangelist,

I can understand your consternation and perhaps even frustration. However, we are to conform ourselves to God's message AND methods of bring the overtures of the Gospel to the lost. It isn't our efforts or ideas that will or even can persuade men of their sins and need of Christ. Only the Holy Spirit of God can do this since first, a sinner needs to be regenerated and then drawn by His work. Charles Finney, back in the 1800's had a better idea on how to "save souls" and circumvented the sovereignty of God in salvation and came up all manner of methods to coerce people to "make a decision for Christ". The results were disastrous and we are suffering from the consequences of those adopted methods today, e.g., thousands upon thousands of deceived people who believe they are right with God but who are yet dead in their sins, under Gods wrath and judgment, and destined for damnation.

There is nothing wrong with a tract or booklet IF it is an accurate summary of biblical truth. Unfortunately, there are few written which are. I do not believe music is a valid medium to attract people to Christ as music, particularly contemporary music only moves the emotions and feeds the sinful desires of what the natural needs to repent of. I really don't know how better to state what I've already written, re: the message and methodology of bringing forth the Gospel. Both are to be firmly grounded in the truths and principles of Scripture which reflect the very nature and attributes of God in Christ. There is only ONE true Gospel (cf. Gal 1:7, 9) and man false gospels which are nothing more than lies and manipulative.

Re: TBN . . . there is no Gospel being preached or taught on TBN. What you will only find there are false prophets and false teachers who are promoting a false gospel, deceiving the masses. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

For a succinct comparison of the true Gospel to all others which glorify man and not God see the following:

The Old Gospel and the New, by J.I. Packer

What is it to Preach the Gospel?, by Henry Mahan

A Gospel Summary, by yours truly

Decisional Regeneration, by James E. Adams

The Gospel and Evangelicalism: An Assessment, by William Webster

Two Views of the Gospel, by Will Metzger

In His grace,

So now it is not only the hip hop culture being of satan , but also TBn and those spirit filled teachers like Joyce Meyer, Dr.Kc Price, Bishop TD Jakes,Creflo Dollar and K.Copeland are teaching another gospel , and not that which they teach of Christ death and resurrection , the blood of Jesus , and repentance of sins, and the final authority of the written Word of God?

So is now also TBN and other Christian tv also from satan, because satan shows prono and other sinful thing on a tv?? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

Evangelist, if I may respond, Joyce Meyer, Dr. KC Price, Bishop TD Jakes, Creflo Dollar and K. Copeland are teaching another gospel.

What is it to preach the gospel?

IT IS . . .

To Tell The Truth About God . . .
To Tell The Truth About Man . . .
To Tell The Truth About Christ . . .
To Tell The Truth About Salvation . . .


Please read the short sermon by Henry Mahan that Pilgrim recommended ! ! !

HERE

and if you would please, explain what part you disagree with.

Thanks, William

This is a whole other subject, re: TBN, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, et al, which if you would like to discuss further and in detail as to their unbiblical teachings, please start another thread in the Theology Forum. Their aberrant teachings are well known. In fact, Robin and others are quite knowledgeable about such sects and I would expect him and others to provide information and answers far better than I can.

No, I am NOT even implying that TV itself is of Satan. But there those who teach another gospel, particularly some of the names you mentioned who are not of God. From your response, I can only assume that you have not taken any time at all to read through at least some of the articles I provided links to. They would definitely help you understand the immense chasm which exists between the theology and Gospel which I hold to be true, which has been embraced, taught and preached throughout the history of the Church and TBN, the individuals you mentioned and the modern evangelicalism as a whole.

In His grace,

Dear evangelist,

Most of the names you mentioned (Copeland, Price, etc.) are adherents of what is called the "Word-Faith" doctrine or the "prosperity gospel". One reasonably short overview of the problems with their beliefs can be found here:

http://www.watchman.org/profile/wordpro.htm

There are probably others here (as Robin) who have more background than I do with them, but from what I have seen this movement exalts man and weakens our view of God. Clete Hux, the author of the article in my link above, gives a pretty fair look at some of the problems with the "Word-Faith" teachings.

Theo

Nothing To Glory Of In Preaching

Necessity Laid Upon Me To Preach

Woe Is Unto Me If I Preach Not

Yes , they are bible led ministers , but they are not a oneness pentecostal, which many claim them as a sect or cult group.

Ahem,


According to the muti-million dollar ministries of the "spirit filled" Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes and K. Copeland, the only purpose of our Holy and SOVEREIGN God is to conditionally serve, "love" (on bended knee) and materially enrich sinners such as you and I. Have you ever thought about what the word "God" means? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" /> Do you know how offensive our sin is to a holy God and do you know what He has already done for us and what "redemption" means?

Have you ever thought or agreed that our Creator and life giving God is more than deserving of our obedience and service to Him, rather than some who disgustingly believe that He should serve us?

Your post on the (reformed) Highway in favor of these antichristian heretics on TBN, CBN or whatever <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" /> is beyond words laughable, and your "gospel" is perverted and upside down.

Have your way and go "Hip-Hop" before Him.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Grandma worshipping to Hip Hop would be rather disorderly don't you think?

.