The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum What happens to the unborn dead ?

I often dream in full colour and it might have something to do with my artistic temperament. Who knows ?

I am currently data gathering five years of research and loving every single minute of it. As is always the case when I have finished working through a body of research, I inevitably have some sort of epiphony, or just a mind blowing something that unsettles me considerably. I look forward to this in much the same way that a philosopher welcomes questions. (and an honest preacher)

Well, I had this dream.

In my dream I was seated in a living room and a young girl (about 5 or 6) with curly brown hair and a bubbling confidence of enthusiastic speech came up to me smiling and talking (I am not sure that such a practice is possible, except maybe in dreams)... she then announced that her mother had been pregnant but the little one had died. I immediately responded as any parent might seeking to console and reassure.

I started telling her that she need not worry for the little one is with Jesus but while I was doing this my mind on another track was thinking about predestination and whether in fact the unborn one had infact entered into the presense of the Lord. My explanation turned into a rather confusing mumble and I was distracted by something else.

I wondered about whether or not a child to be born had a voice before the cells were joined. I had some vague recollection in my dream of hearing a voice say from a womb, "I want to come into this world"...(this is a consideration) but my first thought is the one that puzzled me.

What does happen to a child who dies before they are born ? (ie. aborted, still born, premature etc.) This is not a loaded question or a purposeful strawman argument, I genuinely had the dream and am genuinely perplexed about the development of it. Your answers will be greatly appreciated.

Happy Mothers day to all who may be so blessed, for the rest it is good to be back here for some serious theological considerations.

Your friend,
Straw

This subject has been hashed over many times here on the board. You will find people on both ends of the spectrum and some in between. I personally stand firmly upon "middle ground" due to explicit biblical statements and not upon presumption or deduction as do others.

Simply put, the matter is not first off one of "predestination". Nor is it whether or not an unborn has a "voice", for what voice does one have even after birth? But rather, the first matter for consideration is that of man's natural state before God due to the punishment rendered upon Adam and all his progeny, aka: "Original Sin". Original Sin consists of two elements: 1) Guilt - imputed to ALL humans, and 2) Depravity - inherited by ALL humans. Thus at conception, ALL are guilty before God and possess a depraved, sinful nature. Consequently, ALL are under condemnation and the wrath of God and are in dire need of salvation in Christ.

Secondly, we KNOW that God has elected some, a remnant, to be redeemed in Christ out of the fallen human race before the foundation of the world; before they are born or do anything good or evil. Thus, there is no hindrance to anyone being saved, whether born or unborn if they are predestined to eternal life.

Lastly, I believe the framers of the Westminster Confession in much wisdom and truth set forth the biblical answer to the question in Chapter X:

III. Elect infants (emphasis mine), dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]

12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12
13. John 3:8
14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12

IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever,[17] be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]

15. Matt. 13:14-15; 22:14; Acts 13:48; 28:24
16. Matt. 7:22; 13:20, 21; Heb. 6:4-5
17. John 6:37, 64-66; 8:44; 13:18; cf. 17:12
18. Acts 4:12; I John 4:2-3; II John 1:9; John 4:22; 14:6; 17:3; Eph. 2:12-13; Rom. 10:13-17
19. II John 1:9-12; I Cor. 16:22; Gal. 1:6-8

In His grace,

Hi Pilgrim,

Thanks for replying so quickly. It matters not if UNBORN elect die or not, but UNBORN who are not elect surely must be born and pass beyond accountability to be condemned according to the justice of God ?

(It seems that the WC only deals with infants (already born) -- ?? )

Just so this thread does not run away, this is my MAIN question:

What does happen to a child who dies before they are born ? (ie. aborted, still born, premature etc.)

Peace,
Straw.

If anyone, born or unborn is not elect, then they are reprobate and thus will be condemned to eternal damnation. There are no "innocent" human beings. ALL are conceived in sin and under the wrath of God. (cf. Psa 51:5; 58:1-3; Job 15:14; Is 48:8; Rom 3:10; 5:12, 18; 9:11-13; Eph 2:3) Since ALL die, all are therefore sinners. There is no "age of accountability" to be found in all of Scripture.

That question was already answered which in summary is: All elect infants dying in the womb are saved by the secret work of the Holy Spirit Who unites them to Christ and thus are immediately brought into His presence. ALL non-elect infants dying in the womb are immediately sent to Hell to await the final judgment where they will be cast into the Lake of Fire with all the wicked. God's election is both sovereign and unconditional, i.e., there is NOTHING in regard to any individual which would commend itself to God. Neither blood, heritage, race, color, creed, et al, including being conceived to a believer (covenant family) is the basis either in whole or part was considered when God chose for Himself a remnant to be saved in Christ.

In His grace,

Thanks Pilgrim,
I have a thunderstorm coming this way, so I am going to power down. It will give me time to think about your two answers. Have a good week.

Shalom,
Straw.

Dear Pilgrim,

Thanks for replying so thoroughly to my question. I printed out everything and powered down before the storm hit, which actually was more of a boast storm than a storm, some lightning, a few rumbles of thunders (or is that peels) and then silence, I mean real silence. (aka. very prophetic an all.)

Well, I went through to the lounge and before I had a chance to check your cross references in the second answer, I started to think about Romans 9, just certain passages I had memorized. So I opened there and began to read and was literally struck by God's lightning. His Word. Amen.

This is what I read:- Romans 9:10 onwards...


The entire chapter is so complete with questions and answers that I would have put it all up, but I never saw this coming. God has a way of completely bowling that middle stump right out of the ground.

Thanks for your patience and diligence. Is there a question I can help you with. .

straw,

Please allow me to add to this.


You would not believe how many complaints of "disgust" I've heard over the years about this Scripture verse from atheists and Arminians.

Is it possible that our God already knows what the disposition and conduct, in their future, would be with these unborn children? We are all depraved at birth and excepting His grace, deserving of such a judgment.

Men and women right now, are making this judgement about life and aborting their own children with extreme malice (about 40 million in the U.S. alone since 1973 and nearly 1 billion world-wide since WW 2). This is perfectly OK and "moral" according to them, but they then judge God as to who He decides to give life from His own creation??

The aborting mother and father's judgement in nearly all abortions is to sacrifice a human life so that they might buy a new sports car, go out to dinner more often or make a larger payment on a bigger house!!! Why mess with newborn life when we can have "things"?

Maybe the Lord does not want their children to grow up and be just like them?

The truth is, that our Creator has more of a right to make judgements or to give and withhold life from His own creatures than we do to step on one of His insects.


Denny

Romans 3:22-24

What does one do when a sister in Christ says, "My unborn baby died." ?

This matter of human suffering, needs to be addressed first. That person is grieving and as a Christian, even if we are well taught and know that this unborn baby could be in the Lord's presense or in Hell awaiting the Judgment of God followed by eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, we are obliged to first comfort the pain of loss with prayers for THAT person. The terrible pain of loss, that will be intensified by uncertainty and maybe suffering for this little one unborn, will deeply wound the heart of the most godly of people.

To beat them down with theological correctness will be certainly revealing a terrible inconsistency for our first priority is to the living and not the dead. We console the one who has lost with loving and tender words and in time as the Lord sees to open their hearts to the loss they might be able to let go.

In the oppossite direction. When my Dad died, I was deeply wounded. I loved him though he has lived as a Free Mason and lived for himself, and the chances were he would end up in the lake of fire, I was in no position to make such a judgment, though my mind continually strayed there...oh how it hurt to think of him suffering in that way. He had given so much of his time and life to the betterment of mankind, trust me he was more of a saint that the saintliest of saints. It was similar when my Mother died, for though she said very little about Christ, she lived a life of service and attended services when she could caring and loving all three of her husbands. The loss was awful and I grieved terribly. I knew the passages in Romans 9 and I knew that there was a strong chance that both of my parents would not be some of the happy faces I might see, but I consoled myself with uncertainty and would not accept it until I accepted God for who He is, the Lord God who judges more righteously than you or I ever could, and I let go of both of them, for each had, had lives that they had lived and each would have died and gone to the very place where God wants them to be. I cannot, I dare not question the Potter on His decision, but He was patient with me and let me take a sidebar into fantasy, for a time he let me have them both saved and safe. But in time I learned that if they were, where-ever they are they are exactly where the wisest and holiest of holy God Almighty has them and that I needed to rest in.

I still grieve some and cry some, when I think of my precious Mother. O Lord, into your hands I leave them.

I would comfort and mourn with anyone, including my sister in Christ, for her loss, as best I could.


Yes I agree. Did I suggest in my post that at a time like this I would "beat someone down" with a lecture on theological correctness? I certainly hope you did not take Pilgrim's nor my post as recommending that kind of behavior.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Amen!, Denny. However, we likewise have no warrant to lie or mislead anyone in regard to this issue, either. The ONLY correct answer to the question, "Where is my unborn child now?" is to repeat the words of Abraham who was distraught in realizing that Sodom was to be destroyed with all of its inhabitants; men, women and children.

Genesis 18:25 (ASV) "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked, that so the righteous should be as the wicked; that be far from thee: shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

No one, not even an unborn child will be treated unfairly by our righteous, thrice-holy God. All will be dealt with justly, either according to their inherent guilt and corruption or in Christ Who has suffered in behalf of all those whom the Father gave Him. To speculate into which category an unborn child fits would be fruitless and dangerous.

May God have mercy upon us all who are infinitely worthy of His wrath and condemnation. How glorious it is to know that there is reconciliation, pardon and eternal life to be found in the Lord Christ to all who by faith embrace Him.

In His grace,

Dear Denny and Pilgrim,


I do not.


I agree.

Certainly, this is central to my thoughts on this matter as expressed in my last post.


(note references in [ .... ] )

John Gill in reference to this passage below makes a profound commentary point...


Here are some pieces of John Gill's commentary on the above passage from James that I think bring a sombre balance to some of the thoughts that are being expressed here ...


My only concern was that if someone who might have suffered an abortion, or lost a precious one during pregnancy were reading this, they might find little consolation. If you our reader are suffering such a terrible loss, please know this we have the deepest sadness for you and pray the love of Christ will soothe you and help you to come to that place where you rest in the one of whom Abraham said, 'judges right' I salute you my brethren for the softness, the wisdom and gentle spirit with which you have both contributed to this thread.

In His grace,

Just curious if anyone here is familiar with Ronald Nash's book When a Baby Dies, or John MacArthur's Safe in the Arms of God? I understand that the view advocated in these books was also embraced by Charles Hodge, B. B. Warfield, John Newton, Augustus Toplady, and Charles Spurgeon (I'm sure there are others as well). Among Reformed Baptists, John Piper and Al Mohler also hold this view. I would like to know what the chief criticisms of this position are, especially since everyone here appears to believe that some infants are elect and others are not.

Brad,

I haven't read either Nash's nor MacArthur's book, but I am familiar with the position held by the other's you mentioned including Lorraine Boettner. With the view held by these men and others, it is based upon sheer presumption, i.e., usually on God's mercy and/or covenant. Neither is grounded upon biblical truth. All it would take is but one single text to show otherwise that all infants who die in infancy are not elect and their position falls to the ground. I would offer Rom 9:11-13, where Jacob and Esau were the object of both God's grace and judgment before they were born. No time at the moment to expand so that will have to suffice for now. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Brad,

I have not read either of the books that you have suggested. However, on the Amazon critics review of Nash's book I read this favorable comment:


Many of the other reviews and comments about this book were extremely negative. What was very apparent and what I noticed most was that those who commented negatively were obviously not in the least interested in the biblical perspective but in smooth [Isaiah 30:10] and worldly "Oprah Winfrey" words. Repeatedly, the comment "not for grieving parents" was expressed by those who could care less about what the Scripture has to say about the righteously judged, depraved and deplorable condition that men (including women, children and unborn infants) now find themselves in this dying world.

I agree with Pilgrim that it is foolish to speculate whether unborn infants are elected by God's grace or not in this dead and hopeless (without the Gospel) place:- A world that we have brought upon ourselves with our freely willing and disobedient sin.


Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Denny,

If you're a fan of Gordon Clark's (and I believe that you are) you gotta love Ron Nash (who sadly died last year). Even John Robbins, who scarcely has a kind word for anyone these days, had only nice things to say about him when he passed. .


I agree that from a biblical perspective it's a matter of speculation whether all or only some unborn infants are elected by God's grace (of course, if its possible that all are elect, it's also equally possible that none are).


We may have understood Pilgrim differently (Pil, this response is to both you and Denny), since I took him to be saying that it's not "speculative" but quite obvious that some infants who die are elect and some are not, though unless it is revealed to us by God, as in the case of Jacob and Esau, we can never know for sure. My problem with that example is that both Jacob and Esau were born and grew up unto ripe old age (as was forseen and ordained by God). To me this leaves open the possibility (or presumption if you prefer) that all infants who die are elect. I'm open to other arguments and illustrations, but I'll be quite open about saying that I am biased and predisposed toward this view if there are no clear and unambiguous counterexamples.

At this point I could not tell a grieving parent (or anyone else) who asked my opinion that I knew his or her unborn or dead infant child was with God in heaven; but I could and would tell them that I believed it very much. My belief doesn't count for much, and one's greatest comfort must be in the love and mercy of God, not the theological opinions of others. But unless I come to know of stronger biblical arguments to support the idea that some infants are elect and others not, I will undogmatically "presume" (or hope and pray) on the side of greater mercy and grace.