The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Arminianism: Dead or Alive?

This morning two colleagues and myself had a conversation on various kinds of church related matters. At one point one colleague remarked about reading a modern confession of faith when the other colleagued remarked that documents like the Belgic Confession and the Canons of Dordt dealt with issues of their day but are not really of use/relevant in the 21st century. I did react to that statement that surely Arminian/Pelagian ideas are alive and that a document like the Canons of Dordt still has its place. However, I could not produce real examples from our churches but find it hard to believe that heresies of old were simply confined to specific times.

Perhaps those reading this forum have some real 21st century examples of Arminianism in the church at large. I am looking for real examples.

Thanks

Johan

Johan,

I suppose on a technical level, real ... genuine historic Arminianism would be difficult to find today, although I have to believe that there must be some individual churches which adhere to it. However, what you will find in the majority of Evangelical churches today is semi-Pelagianism, which is a step below Arminianism. So, pick a church... any church outside which is not Reformed (externally) and that's basically what you will find. Now, it should be mentioned that just because a church is a member of a Reformed (Continental or Presbyterian) is certainly no guarantee that it doesn't teach/preach/practice semi-Pelagianism, Arminianism or some other heresy. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

I know the Methodists and Wesleyans are arminian in their theology. How about John Wesley himself?

The majority of american evangelicals tend to view salvation as belonging 99.98% to God, but man has the responsibility for the other .02% IMO, that falls way short in Grace, but maybe the independent, democratization of american society places so much emphasis on choice. The only part of the petal most affirm is the "P", though understanding of it may differ.

Thanks for pointing our that semi-pelagianism is indeed alive. Found the following recent articles that might help:

http://the-highway.com/pelagian_Sproul.html

http://www.the-highway.com/2religions.html

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Johan

A conversation between Charles Simeon and John Wesley.

"Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?

Yes, I do indeed.

And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?

Yes, solely through Christ.

But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?

No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.

Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?

No.

What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother's arms?

Yes, altogether.

And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?

Yes, I have no hope but in Him.

Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election, my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things wherein we agree." (Moule, 79f)

The blog author further writes,

But don't take this to mean that Simeon pulled any punches when expounding Biblical texts. He is very forthright in teaching what the Bible teaches and calling error by its real name. But he is jealous of not getting things out of balance

Wish Wesley had formulated his theology in a way that agreed with his confession in this conversation. Sadly he didn't.

Pilgrim said:


I know that all too well, the CRC is an example of this. They actively promote Robert Schuler as well Willow Creek philosophy and have the audacity to claim that those ministries are completely compatible with Reformed theology.

I even had an e-mail conversation with one CRC pastor and included an article by CH Spurgeon. Among other things, this pastor said that Spurgeon was being too judgmental.
Oh well, at least I found out exactly where they stand.

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Tom

Tom, am I understanding you correctly that the CRC has people in it that actively support semi-pelagianism? And that Schuler and Willow Creek is semi-pelagian?

Johan

You know I was listening to a podcast the other day where Roger Nicole a defender of what he refers to as true Arminianism said as much. He said that what is being called Arminianism in E-van-jelly-cal churches is really semi-Pelagianism. Sad when even the Armininians recognize the errors.

Unless Roger Nicole has made a radical shift in his theology, he's no Arminian but a strong 5-Point Calvinist. Are you SURE he claimed to be a "true" Arminian? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

I got some ideas, but just to make sure. What are the differences between a semi-pelagian and an arminian?

I'll take the easy way out and refer you to: The Pelagian Captivity of the Church, by R.C. Sproul. Methinks it will very helpful for you to read this article as it not only answers your question, but it will give you some background (history) both ancient and current as to these two theologies.

I have now read R.C. Sproul's article twice in the last two days and understand the issue better. I think it answers my original question that at least semi-pelagianism is well alive.

But what are the consequences of this theology in a church that holds to it or that effectively allows/tolerates the teaching of this theology by its pastors? Where does it lead to?

Johan

Johan,

Put succinctly, it leads back to Rome! Semi-Pelagianism holds to a synergistic soteriology, i.e., grace + works = salvation. In other words, it is a false gospel which makes "faith" (generally of the Sandemanian kind, aka: Easy Believism - see here: Andrew Fuller and the Sandemanians) a work since it teaches God loves all equally, the Son atoned for all equally, and the Holy Spirit draws (influences) all equally. Thus that which actually brings salvation is one's own "free-will" decision for Jesus. See my little contribution here: Do you REALLY Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone?.

A "Reformed/Calvinist" church which allows any pastor, elder, deacon or teacher to promote this heresy (condemned as damnable heresy at the Synod of Dordt) would be antithetical to its heritage and confessional base and thus not be warranted to call itself Reformed/Calvinist. Consistently, anyone who embraces semi-Pelagianism cannot be saved. Of course, what would have to be determined on an individual basis is IF what a person espouses as being true is actually what that person truly believes in the heart; is there oneness between the head and heart. Fortunately, although rare, there are those whose theology does not match what they actually believe. I think that perhaps John Wesley would be one such example.

In His grace,

This is what I've seen a lot living in the so-called Bible Belt. A person will admit that they do not have anything to do with theirr own salvation. They agree that it is 100% God; however, they refuse to place that statement upon others. It is as if they realize themselves that they are totally helpless, but somehow think that others are not. Why they take that approach - beats me.

Nicole, Olson I got the first name right. This is what happens when you post while dozing. Who I meant was Roger E. Olson who recently wrote Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities