The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Where do you and/or your church stand?

Yes... illustrations are fine. But they are, or should be, a different animal than legislation.

Yes... it is "too harsh to say" a person who spends a considerable amount of time watching football would not be saved. Is watching football on TV the "unpardonable sin"? Would you want to go so far as to say that one could murder and commit adultery is less sinful than one who watches football on the Sabbath? (hint: King David) I know of no professing believer who has reached perfection in this life... do you? Is not repentance offered to believers as well as unbelievers?

Jeremiah 14:7 (ASV) "Though our iniquities testify against us, work thou for thy name's sake, O Jehovah; for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee."

1 John 1:8-10 (ASV) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Yes... and No... a) Yes, the Church should preach the Word and in doing so include the beauty and sanctity of The Lord's Day with illustrations FROM SCRIPTURE to encourage all to do that which God requires. And, b) No, I am not "simply hung up on lists", but rather hung up on those who would create lists as stated previously, which either add to or detract from God's holy law. One can be just as guilty of profaning God and His law through commission or omission. As one Puritan said, "There is a legalist resident in every heart."

In His grace,

William,

I anticipated that someone would try and use the Exodus passage as justification for abstaining from meal preparation. That's why I gave a NEW TESTAMENT example (the NT interprets the OT) with the Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the one Who declares how the Sabbath should be kept in word and in example. The Pharisees constantly upbraided and condemned Him for breaking the Sabbath. However, He certainly did not break the Sabbath by anything He did. The problem was that the Pharisees ADDED TO God's law with their own erroneous interpretation and ideas. And these additions became equal with Scripture (do I hear Roman Catholicism?).

Now, IF the Exodus 16 passage is to be held as a universal principle to which one must adhere to rightly observe the Sabbath Day, then the Pharisees were correct and Jesus Christ was guilty as charged. Personally, I have no desire to go there.

Again, we must be very careful not to impose man's tradition(s) upon the conscience as if they were written in stone by the very finger of God Himself. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Great question!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

However, it is unfortunately

A new thread would be dandy with that subject offered for discussion. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pilgrim,

The way your expressing the view of preparing for the Lord's day is a little inflated. Exodus 16:22,23 are just nice EXAMPLES. There may be some who feel they must adhere but I think most just do it to honor the Lord by giving him more time and realize that they are not making the day more "holy" by their works. I don't know of any, including myself who impose traditions upon the conscience of their fellow Christians as if they were written in stone by the very finger of God Himself and if there is shame on them.

1 Corinthians 6:12 ¶ All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians10:23 ¶ All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

William,

1) I hope you do realize I was NOT in any way even implying that YOU were trying to impose your personal view(s) on me or anyone else; binding their conscience.

2) I personally know people and churches/denominations who DO impose their "additions/traditions" upon people, either explicitly or implicitly. Invariably, these "traditions" become a[the] standard by which those who do not adhere to are judged as "less mature, less holy, less sanctified" or even "unsaved". Of course, those guilty of doing so more often than not categorically deny they are judging others, adding to God's Word, etc.

Colossians 2:8 (ASV) "Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:..." 16-23 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's. Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he hath seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increasing with the increase of God. If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances, Handle not, nor taste, nor touch (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; [but are] not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh."

3) You wrote: "The way your expressing the view of preparing for the Lord's day is a little inflated." I'm not sure what you mean by this, especially the word "inflated". Care to explain so I might understand better?

In His grace,

I guess the phrases "must adhere" and "who impose" seemed to me to lump all who prepare for the Lord's day together with the "nuts" and "Pharisees". Mostly though I fear for those who read this thread and think that the old ways are just a bunch of crap. Ya know the church is not getting more holy but less holy and I think that the Lord is removing His Holy Spirit. So, perhaps we should give Him more time in our thoughts on the Lord's day instead of cooking and washing dishes for two hours. Now with that said it's only a matter of a little time when someone will make a post agreeing without realizing what you really were saying. I mean after all John Calvin when bowling on the Lord's day.

Maybe church should have a bowling alley.

Well said as always Pilgrim,

But let me ask you what was the purpose of the question regarding the sabbath day and worldly abstinance?

p.s. I don't think the severity of watching NFL on the Lord's Day is up there with David's sin against God with Bathsheba - so we are talking the severity or degrees of sin?

NFL is played on Sunday - players are working and entertaining on the Lord's - we also make idols of the teams and the players, it consumes are thoughts, passions and desires - it leads us to the bar, etc.

Most Christians know it's wrong to murder, covet and fornicate but do they admit it's wrong to engage in a sporting event on Sunday - this is an issue worth discussing (what about little league games or football games on the Lord's day?) WHat is taking precendent?

On a different note why is Halloween wrong? Kids don't know much about the origins they just know they get to dressup go door to door and get candy.

What about Santa - is he evil?


I guess this could all fall under legalism.

Personally, I lump it all together - it's all vanity - our hearts are inclined toward the world and at the same time away from God.

Pilgrim, do you have kids? Where do you draw the line?


Back to David, if he had no remorse and repentance and continued in his ways we would question His standing before God but the man who continues to tarnish the Lord's day and have no regard for His honor (even though he may have some concept and inclination towards God and His ways)is much worse then the repentant sinner who commited a gross outward sin, no?

I don't understand your point with David - sin is sin, no?
David was reconciled to God - there are many who will never commit an act as heinous as David's who will not be.

In discussions or sermons about vein pursuits and following after the world and putting it before God (i.e. the Super Bowl) mentioning the Theater, Pro-sports and entertainment in general would certainly have it's place. You never heard sermons from George Whitefield criticising the playhouses and cards and dice on Christmas - how about Calvin and Geneva - what activies did he consider unlawful?

Pilgrim, I'm not saying your perspective is wrong - but it is not as clear-cut as you think, I don't think.

Is that really true - suprising for such a pious man, if that's true maybe I need to rethink a lot of my convictions???

So are we taking these Lord's Day abstinances too far then?

Pilgrim - you know I'm not saying that! You must confuse me with somebody else - I'm not saying watching NFL on SUnday is the unpardonable sin - I'm saying it is tarnishing the Lord's day to spend it in vein pusuits - God is unchanging is He not?

I'm not looking for perfection - but a change in GOdly desires would probably exclude Sunday idol worship, no? Not too trivial - I think this could be a small indicator of one whose inclinations are either turned to GOd or not.

Repentance is most definitely offered to unbelievers - where did I indicate I did not believe that?

Some say Calvin also gave his gave approval or at least didn't protest very hard over the burning of a heretic and did not object when the Anabaptists were being imprisoned and drowned in other parts of Switzerland. So be careful following a man. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bow.gif" alt="" />

AC, discussion boards can be brutal, it's best to let them go their own way concerning christion liberty but for yourself beg the Lord that he would keep you close to His side and the He would give you a desire follow hard after the Lord Jesus Christ.


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Hey Pilgrim,

We can probably go on and on...

I essentailly agree with you about having a list of do's and don'ts and acutally legislating...

however, I think many of these wordly distractions are demonic diversions that lead us away from God. And I think warnings are in order (it sounds that you may agree on these points)

Some may view you as a legalist when it comes to music.

And don't get me wrong - I enegage in trivial pursuits and I don't think they are necessarily a gauge of my standing before God - ususally my conscience will speak to me that my time can be better spent or that my participation in a certain activity is God dishonoring.

I don't think this discussion relates to salvation, it relates to surrounding ourselves with the means of grace and fleaing from worldy endeavors that will lead us away from Him (and/or are dishonoring to Him).

Thanks William

AC,

1. The purpose of asking the question is to go unanswered until the poll has run its course; Dec 1^st, if I remember right.

2. YOU are the one who wrote that one who watched TV, NFL football to be more specific, on the Sabbath, is to have their salvation questioned which appeared to have the ultimate condemnation of being the "unpardonable sin". Transgression of any of God's law is sin as is transgression of man's law if it doesn't require one to either disobey God's law or demand that God's law not be kept. So, what do you want to do with someone who is a habitual speeder and doesn't repent (curtail the speeding)? Should that person's salvation be questioned? Should such an individual be put under discipline and eventually put out of the church; excommunicated?

The breaking of the Fourth Commandment (for those of us who believe that the Fourth Commandment is inextricably part of God's moral law and thus perpetually binding upon all men), is a grievous sin and one which is repented of. Failure to adhere to the fundamental precepts concerning the Sabbath, e.g., ceasing from labour, recreation, etc., and given oneself over to the worship of God and doing works of mercy and of necessity is a sin which is worthy of church discipline.

3. The subject of worldliness is, I believe, another subject although surely one can profane the Sabbath by engaging in worldly pursuits. But let us not fall prey to another Pharisaical pitfall, i.e., externalizing sin. You should be very much aware of this grievous error as it has been taught in the Roman State Church for centuries and it is no stranger to Protestantism either. Again, man has this penchant for writing long lists of "do's and don'ts" in his never satisfied quest to define "worldliness". The Amish are but one extreme example, although there are others who reject most everything in the world, yet they fail miserably in their practice because it is impossible to remove oneself from the world. Even our Lord Christ taught that we are to be "in the world", yet not "of the world". Asceticism is an ugly thing that can destroy the soul.

My children are all grown but I do remember when they were younger and having to deal with such worldly ideas such as Santa Clause. Yes, Santa Clause is fiction as it is taught today. The teaching is dishonoring to God for it in essence tries to supplant God by attributing the attributes of deity to an old fat man from the North Pole. Yet, due to man's inherent sin nature, it is far easier and preferable to believe in Santa Clause than in a God who knows all things and Who rewards those who have been joined to His Son, Christ Jesus, with manifold blessings both now and in the age to come. In short, I taught my children the TRUTH and did my best to explain why the myth of Santa Clause existed and how foolish it really was.

Again, let me make myself as clear as I can... The Scriptures openly warn about worldliness and to avoid such. The emphasis is most often directed toward one's HEART and not toward some OUTWARD pursuit. But men make those silly lists of alleged "taboos", e.g., consuming any alcohol, use of tobacco, dancing, movies, TV, card playing, etc., etc., ad nauseam. Rarely does one find anything which is condemned in Scripture, i.e., a violation of God's law. Now I ask you, why is it that men are forever wanting to bind the consciences of other men by legislating what is "right" and "wrong" where Scripture is silent? The framers of the WCF knew all too well this tendency and thus included Chapter XX on the matter of Christian Liberty. Do you think it was just 'coincidence' that the subject of Christian Liberty, which addresses both the Church and individuals precedes the following chapter on "The Lord's Day"?

Can I say it again without being seen as a broken record? "There is a legalist resident in every heart of man!"

Matthew 7:1-5 (ASV) "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Now, there's some words of wisdom.

In His grace,

Some of the "old ways" were and still are, "a bunch of crap"... human reasonings not grounded in God's infallible inerrant inspired written Word. The Pharisees did many things right, at least outwardly, and the Lord Jesus Christ commended them for doing so. The heart that sought after God by faith, however, was sorely absent in them. And so, Jesus upbraided them often and made an example of them as those who were not destined to heaven. They considered themselves "more holy" than others because they adhered to laws, both instituted by God but particularly those instituted by themselves. See for example,

Luke 18:10-14 (ASV) "Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get. But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be thou merciful to me a sinner. I say unto you, This man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

Is it really "more holy" to prepare one's meals on Saturday night rather than on Sunday? If it really is "more holy" (just the terminology reveals the seriousness of the matter at hand), then ALL who don't follow that practice are by default, "less holy" and to some degree (to be determined by who I wonder?) are dishonoring to God and profaning the Day. Did the Lord Jesus Christ err in plucking corn, shucking the ears and eating them with His disciples? Shouldn't He have "prepared" for the Sabbath more prudently and gathered to Himself enough grain/corn on Friday knowing it was "more holy" to not do such things on the Sabbath Day? The Pharisees thought so. But from what I read in Scripture, the Pharisees were wrong and the Lord Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath as it was intended by God and not by the ideas of men. I believe eating, washing, and such other things are included in the exclusion, "works of necessity" as shown by Christ's own life.

In His grace,