The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum John Piper Interviews Rick Warren

For those interested I thought I would provide a link to an interview that John Piper did with Rick Warren.
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/john-piper-interviews-rick-warren-on-doctrine
I must say that as I listened to the interview, I found it quite confusing. Warren states openly that Jonathon Edwards is a hero of his and that he has read almost all of his works.

In my opinion having read enough of Rick Warren's books, I do not see any evidence that Edwards has had any influence on Warren. In fact Warren's works seem opposite to that of Edwards.

Listening to the interview, I couldn't help but think that perhaps if I knew nothing about Warren, I would probably believe that he is a Calvinist.
The more I think about that, the more I can't help but think about how Piper's questions were asked. Piper's questions seemed to be dirrected in such a way that made Warren look good and thus prove Warren's critiques wrong.

Perhaps that aspect tells a lot more about Piper than Warren.
I used to be a fan of John Piper, yet the more I read/hear him in recent times the more I lose respect for him.

I wouldn't mind getting some feedback at people's thoughts of the interview.

Tom

Some catch on quickly, e.g., some of us have tried to warn people about John Piper for a number of years. Some take a little longer to see the 'light'. And, others will never catch on due to blind prejudice, hero worship, or some other thing. This refusal to think biblically, soberly and too often negatively about some popular figure isn't restricted to those who follow a cult leader or some way out Evangelist. This blind allegiance for someone exists just as much within the Protestant church.

I don't think I need to provide a list of names of individuals who are adored by 'groupies', among whom are some who strive to gather such followers.

I like Piper, however, I don't think that I am a "Groupie"... I think he is wrong to so openly and freely associate with Rick Warren. I have openly criticized him where I thought he was wrong or off base. That said, I still don't he is all that bad, though you are free to disagree.

The other thing that may be considered is that he is getting older, and perhaps (without any disrespect to my elders who have taught me all I know) the age is getting to him and is effecting his judgment.

The thing with Piper is that he has written and preached some of the best material I have listened to or read. He can inspire someone to go deeper with God, but he can also step over a line and go where Scripture doesn't go.

Anyone who has followed John Piper over the years knows that he can and will rebuke people (as he did with Rob Bell). But he can also be undiscerning when it comes to people like Rick Warren, who likes to talk through both sides of his mouth; who can feel at home speaking to Calvinists and Arminians.
John Piper's only real complaint about Rick Warren is that he believes Warren is a little too pragmatic for his own good. The rest he believes his critiques are wrong about Warren.

Unfortunately Rick Warren is not the only person whom Piper has backed despite warnings by other Reformed leaning pastors and theologians.
Potty mouth Mark Driscoll comes to mind here.

I think that regardless of whether or not Piper is well intentioned by coming along side of people like Driscoll and Warren; I believe it is affecting Piper in a negative way.
Not too long ago John Piper made a plea to Calvinists. He wanted a “kinder more loving Calvinism”.
I wonder if his actions with people like Rick Warren are what he meant by his plea?
I am all for checking our pride at the door when discussing spiritual matters; but it is not kind or loving to let wolves in the building.

Tom

I am interested in reading any feedback related to the interview itself.

What did you think of the questions being asked and why?
What did you think of the answers given and why?

Tom

That's certainly a possible explanation, at least for those things which have happened in the past couple of years. But how do you explain those things which Piper has preached and/or taught and/or written for a long time now?

I'm thinking of the more prominent questionable things and even heretical things:

1. His view on justification in Future Grace
2. His non-cessationism
3. His view of ordaining women deacons
4. His teaching called "Christian Hedonism" (which by the way Edwards NEVER believed nor wrote)
5. His involvement with the "Acts 29" Group, albeit a more recent item

I am not certain I understand "Future Grace", care to link me so I can check it out.

As for the others, yes I would say not being a cessationist is an error, and depending on how deep you go it may be an error that disqualifies my fellowship with you. However, I don't think Piper is all Dog howling and swinging from chandeliers.

Ordaining Women as Deacons, it may be an error. I just don't see the scripture barring them, but I don't see it affirming them either. However, I will continue to uphold the Doctrinal Standards of the PCA which means I will not support women being ordained as Deacons.

I have read the book, "Desiring God", and while I do think he seems to have just ran with it and gone too far, there are however truths within that book that are often ignored by the bulk of Christendom, making God properly the object of our Joy, Worship, Faith and Praise.

Though I have had no real dealings with the Acts 29 movement, a quick skimming of their Doctrines page does not reveal anything that is a Red Flag, though I did just skim it, so I could be wrong. What is the exact error or heresy that makes this group suspect?

Tom you asked me to respond specifically to the Interview which due to my carelessness I didn't see the OP (doh!).

I think Warren speaks a great game. He can speak to those of both a Reformed and a Baptistic background. However, I think that Warren lets the "Cat out of the bag" when he starts talking about making Christians, as he talks about in the interview,"Self Feeders" and there by plucking the branch from the fire where it will shrink and finally be extinguished. God commands us to be in fellowship, and by virtue of our stance in Christ we should love our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and desire fellowship for joy, edification, and worship. This idea of "Self Feeders" strips the Teaching and Ruling Elder of his God commanded Duty. And that is where the crux lie. No true Calvinist would tell his flock of sheep, "Leave the pen, you need to take care of yourself now." All the while wolves are all around looking for a way to carry off the flock. It is a foolish and unfortunately dangerous and unbiblical idea, and that is one of my biggest complaint. Unfortunately I started the book "Purpose Driven Life", but never finished it. I have also heard a few of his sermons and they are too shallow, so I have not really had experience with him. My big Fish to Fry is the plague in my generation, the Emergent Church, and more specifically Rob Bell and his influence on Youth Groups with his teaching materials.

So in short, he may very well have a confession such as the "London Baptist Confession of Faith" which would be really cool. However, I don't think it ever comes out of the filling cabinet where it only sits there and collects dust rather than be used and taught.

As to Piper and the questions being asked.

I think they were good questions over all. However, I don't think Piper should have rushed to his defense when he did and should have let him answer for himself.

Like I said before, Warren talked a good game, but I do believe that it was only talk and that his actions do not necessarily reflect what he was saying.

Things I liked:
*Getting rid of the False Political Dichotomy
*Making Disciples, teaching them all the things I commanded you & Stewardship Environment are equally important tasks as we are still divinely tasked with Gardening from Eden.

Hi Pilgrim

You stated:

While I disagree with "Christian Hedonism", mainly because I think it goes too far; something that I have not been able to find out is whether or not Edwards did or didn't believe in "Christian Hedonism."

I have asked a few quite knowledgeable people about this claim and there doesn’t seem to be a consensus about Edwards and Christian Hedonism. I got the feeling that even some of those who didn’t agree with Christian Hedonism, believed that Piper was correct concerning Edwards.
What I have not had to date is solid proof either way concerning Edwards’s thoughts on the issue.
If you know of any proof, it would probably go along way (at least in my mind) towards putting this particular issue to rest.

I thought I would add for the benifit of those who are not privy to John Piper's Christian Hedonism, his defence of it as well as his take of Edwards on the matter
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/was-jonathan-edwards-a-christian-hedonist.

Thank you
Tom

Tom,

There is one sure way to find the 'proof' you are looking for to determine if Jonathan Edwards believed in Piper's "Christian Hedonism". Read the Works of Jonathan Edwards (Banner of Truth). This I have done and as stated above, I have no recollection whatsoever of Edwards even hinting at anything remotely similar to what Piper believes on this matter. Piper is a master at bending and twisting what others have written in order to support his novel and erroneous ideas.

Here is a webpage that has a long list of critiques of Piper's views on various subjects but especially of his "Christian Hedonism" view... clicky HERE.

FYI, just as a reminder, doing a search on this board for "Piper" or "Christian Hedonism" will have many results, showing this is not a new topic. In some of the previous discussions, you were quite strong in your defense of John Piper. You have apparently lost some of that zeal as of late and hopefully, you will continue to 'mature' in your understanding of this man and his views.

Pilgrim

What you might call "maturity" when it comes to John Piper; I don't look at in that manner. Though I would say that I try to look at the evidence when I read something and that has nothing to do with who said it.
Whether it is you, Edwards, John Piper, RC Sproul etc... I believe it is my responsibility to be like a Berean and examine the Scriptures to see if what they say is true. The key being that the Scriptures are the only infallible source of truth.

I have done this for years now and have found that as God is pleased to shed more light on a subject, I sometimes need to change a previously held view.
Perhaps this is maturity, but I think it is also something that should be characterized in every Christian.

Thank you for the link, as I have time I plan to spend some time reading it.

I thought I would also state that the link I provided does have some Edwards quotes to which I am not completely sure how to take. But that might just be because some of what Piper and what Edwards said seem to be a little abstract.
When I read things that seem abstract to me, in order to understand it properly I need to read it a few times.
One of the things I have found in reading people who critique Piper’s form of Christian Hedonism. Is that in a few cases they can’t get past the word “hedonism”. They look at this word and they automatically think of it in the negative sense; rather than in the way Piper means the word. As a result what they are critiquing isn’t an accurate depiction of what Piper teaches. At least, if I understand the issue properly.
Piper acknowledges that hedonism focused on oneself without the glory of God the ultimate object, is sinful. Yet, he believes that when we as Christians truly love ourselves, we seek to glorify God in everything we do; and the direction of how to do this is by getting to know Scripture.
I believe Piper puts the cart before the horse here, in that I think our focus should be on God as directed by Scripture and if we get joy from this, it is something that is a fruit of it.
Loving God should come first, not loving ourselves. Piper however, doesn’t believe that it is possible to not to love ourselves first and he also believes that this isn’t necessarily wrong, when its goal is to glorify God.

A possible danger I find in Piper's approach is that no matter how well intentioned we are, the moment we seek "self love", we are in danger of falling prey to the flesh. However, if we seek to first understand Scripture and put it to use, we are less likely to give in to the flesh.
As Scripture says, whatsover is not of faith is sin. I am not sure how first loving ourselves fits with this, when self love is focused first inwardly. Faith is directed towards Christ alone, not us.

JD
Interesting thoughts.
I would like to hear your take on Piper as it relates to the interview.

For example:
Did you like Piper's questions?
Do you agree that Piper got duped?
Etc...

You might not think that Warren is a big enough fish to fry; but being his huge following and the fact that he pastors one of America's largest Churches, I would say he is a pretty big fish.

I personally know people who have been infected by both Warren's movement and the Emergent movement.

Tom

As I said above most of them were good questions, but again, I think if Piper wanted to do it he should of let Warren answer for himself and not rush to defend him while being in the middle of asking the questions.

I do think that Piper got duped. But perhaps Warren is duped as well in that he may think he is reformed and may even have a Reformed Confession somewhere buried and forgotten that he only mentions in passing.

I never said Warren wasn't a big fish, just not my fish...

1. If maturing in the faith isn't growing in discernment, putting off the old and putting on the new, then please tell me what Christian "maturity" is!

2. Re: "...it has nothing to do with who said it." Well, Tom, I hope this is another instance of you not phrasing your thoughts as you ought. But you had BETTER take into account who said what. In this particular case, Piper makes claim that his "Christian Hedonism" was at least partly due to Jonathan Edwards, i.e., things Edwards wrote. Thus, searching the Scriptures will avail nothing. You have to consult the alleged source. Piper also claims that this view is mentioned in the Westminster Shorter Catechism. But when one reads the original phrase, it says nothing about Christian Hedonism.

1. And those who can't get past the word "hedonism" as being of negative connotation just might have a point. Look up the word in any reputable dictionary and they have a good reason to reject the word as Piper has used it, i.e., to mate it to "Christian". It's another one of those instances where something of this world; sin is "baptized" and brought into the church. There is no such thing as Christian murder, a Christian meth lab, a Christian brothel nor a Christian hedonist. What you wrote below shows that even you know in your heart that this is totally unbiblical and antithetical to Christ's teaching concerning "self", e.g., Matt 16:24; Mk 8:34; Lk 9:23 (interesting how the Holy Spirit thought it good to record this statement of the Lord Christ not once, not twice but three times). And, the Lord Christ summarized the moral law as FIRST loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. And secondly, to love your neighbor as yourself. It is clear that the assumption is that all men already love themselves more than anything else, which is sin. The 'you must first learn to love yourself' error has been around for ages in myriad forms. The popular form in our day is building up your "self esteem". It's all the Devil's lie and psycho mumbo-jumbo.

2. And a regenerate man is given to see in small part what God sees within himself. The result of that is a painful experience called conviction of sin and a consequent turning FROM SELF to Christ. For as the apostle Paul confessed, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing:" (Rom 7:18). So, pray tell, what is there to love about yourself IF one, like Paul, has come to see that they are the "chief of sinners" (1Tim 1:15)?

And don't you think that this in and of itself is a serious contradiction of Scripture, which is your sole and final authority in all matters of faith (doctrine) and life? Too many are given to downplay the seriousness of his Christian Hedonism. It isn't just a matter of a poor choice of words and trying to justify its use through clever sophistry, which Tim Keller also was guilty of with his book, The Prodigal God.

Lastly, God is most glorified in the display of His 'self'; His person and nature which was most splendidly displayed in the incarnation of the Son of God (Jh 1:14; Heb 1:3; 2Pet 1:17; 1Jh 1:1,2; 1Cor 1:31).