Rom 8:3539 (Josh Translator Version JTV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ, [only me myself]? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword [oh. no just myself]? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors [unless I mess up] through him that loved us. For I am persuaded [well for the most part that is], that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, [but I can separate myself by my works, though I was saved by grace].
I can't stop lauging....I've been meaning to write something like this in the thread, but you've beat to me it. And I've have to say..It's a good one.
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Blah, blah, blah, Josh you write just to see yourself in print. Your not really interested in learning what Biblical Christian Soteriology really is for you have made up your mind and the facts mean nothing to you. Continuing in this conversation is a waste of my time, go teach pigs to sing.
Thanks Carlos:<br><br>Really, I just was tired of JoshT's twisting, torturing, and tail spinning of Scripture. He must use a different Greek text or should I say Grievous Text .<br><br>I just hope God opens his eyes so he may see the truth of Scripture.
Joe Here is my attempt. Tell me what you think.<br><br>Joh 6: 36: 40 according the arminian view: <br><br>36 "But (50) I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe[ but ofcouse you still have the ability of you own “free-will’ to believe despite being ‘dead’,so don’t mind what what I just said] . <br>37 "(51) All[well perhaps some] that the Father gives[ this means ofcourse that we choose him first, then because he sees that from the past, then he gives us to Christ.] Me will[ shall is kind of too strong, perhaps ‘may’] come [this can’t mean believing..must mean something else] to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out [ well, we will disregard the emphatic greek denying the possiblilty of this ever happnening, but we shall add that we can decide to cast ourselves out, you know, turn from sheep to goat] . <br>38 "For (52) I have come down from heaven, (53) not to do My own will, but (54) the will of Him[ this does not mean that Jesus died for his sheep whom were elected by the father according to his will..we think that Jesus can do a will different from the father] who (55) sent Me. <br>39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of (56) all[ this ofcouse only those who by their mighty strength, their running and willing, etc] that He has given Me I (57) lose nothing[ except for those who choose to loose it themselves], but (58) raise it up on the last day [this seems unclear]. <br>40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who (59) beholds the Son and (60) believes in Him will have eternal life[ this means temporal and quality of life, not eternal as in everlasting...according to the arminian dictianory of words, eternal is ‘temporal’, what else could christ mean. surely it can’t be eternal, if that were the case then we shall turn grace into sin..we will dimiss Paul’s objections in romans 6 at this point], and I Myself will (61) raise him[ this seems vague] up on the last day." <br><br>As our commenatary as shown above....The arminian system is the truth of the bible. Please disregard the twisting and turning the text on it’s head. It ca’t mean what it says, because of what we believe the natural man to be and How we perceive God to be. Thus, we must make the text says so that It lies with our ideas of man. This must be the first rule of EISEGESIS..oops, meant to say exesegesis. There you go. <br><br>Now Here is there text according to calvinist.<br> <br>Joh 6: 36: 40<br>36 "But (50) I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. <br>37 "(51) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. <br>38 "For (52) I have come down from heaven, (53) not to do My own will, but (54) the will of Him who (55) sent Me. <br>39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of (56) all that He has given Me I (57) lose nothing, but (58) raise it up on the last day. <br>40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who (59) beholds the Son and (60) believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will (61) raise him up on the last day." <br><br><br>As you can see the text speaks for itself.<br><br> <br><br>Carlos<br><br><br><br>
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
Joe,<br><br>Just came upon this long running thread. Wanted to add that it is wrong to tell Josh he needs to repent for having a different view on God's Word than you or the others here. If you haven't noticed, every Christian on the planet is not a Calvinist. Yours and Josh's are not the only views on Scripture. Point is, Josh believes in Christ as his saviour, so do you, the rest is secondary, no repentance needed on your end for that Josh. Josh has strong views that he is standing by and so do you, but don't fault him for standing by them as others in this forum have, you stand by yours just the same. Josh should have the same respect. There seem to be so many people out there that know for sure that they have the facts all wrapped up, and to me that translates into a self-righteous attitude to think one has all of the answers, and from what I have read both he and others have it all right. Quick fact, nobody on this earth, not one, has it all right when it comes to Christianity and Christian living. The debating is wonderful, it is just people getting frustrated and putting others down and telling them they are not right with God because of their view that is foul to me.<br><br>baseball
Anyone who believes that they are saved by works is lost. You need to read ALL the posts and see JosT''s response(s). He believes in salvation by works! It is only by grace he may be or anyone may be saved--Eph 2:8-10.
I am not so foolish to think that ONLY Calvinists are saved (I was saved before being a Calvinist) and not all Calvinists are saved as well. But, I am also not so foolishto believe that someone who promotes and believes a salvation of works is saved! That is another gospel.....
Joe,<br><br>Sorry that I did not realize that Josh was promoting that. If he truly does and is lost, I pray he finds the truth by Gods grace. I would think anyone who believes in works over grace or works and grace would prefer grace.<br><br>Chad
Baseball,<br>Josh says that he believes that no one can come to God unless God enables him. In this he is right.<br>Where he is in error though is that he believes that it is because of his persevering in the faith, and not voluntarily walking away that he will continue to the end. He thinks a true Christian can lose his salvation.<br>I would not assume to know if Josh is or is not a Christian. I do believe he is in error against the plain teaching of scripture. I know that there are Christians who lack assurance of salvation who are truly saved, but perhaps have been influenced by false teaching. I am afraid that this is what has happened to Josh. If he is a true child of God, God is able show him the truth and make this clear to him. <br>Susan
SWW STATES: [color:red]Josh says that he believes that no one can come to God unless God enables him. In this he is right. Where he is in error though is that he believes that it is because of his persevering in the faith, and not voluntarily walking away that he will continue to the end. He thinks a true Christian can lose his salvation. I would not assume to know if Josh is or is not a Christian. I do believe he is in error against the plain teaching of scripture. I know that there are Christians who lack assurance of salvation who are truly saved, but perhaps have been influenced by false teaching. I am afraid that this is what has happened to Josh. If he is a true child of God, God is able show him the truth and make this clear to him.
Let’s look a little closer SWW! (you will need to re-read all the posts above/below to get their full context). The list is not comprehensive, but enough to give you a general gist:
Quotes by JoshT
[color:red]Against, Perseverance of God in the Saints and God’s sovereignty:
1. This does not guarantee that a believer cannot walk away from God. If this did happen, that person would be cut off from by God the Father (John 15), for He is sovereign and has the right to do so with what is His.
Here God is NOT sovereign in His power of salvation, for one may walk away and ONLY then is God seen to be sovereign to execute justice??? Thus, JoshT sees himself kept by his own works, which is denied in Scripture: Rom 11: 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
2. And yes, Christ promises believers His new name. And? He also promises us eternal life, but the promises only apply to those who do not fall away.
So, I am saved today, the next hour I am lost, but now I pray and I am saved again, O’h, just sinned again, I am now lost, I pray an hour later and I am saved again…….I go in and out of eternity??? SO God is only sovereign in salvation when I obey??? This is works righteousness!!!
3. As far as what "draw" means. Yes, I am well aware that God's conviction and pulling us towards Christ are very strong, but nothing in scripture indicates that He cannot be resisted, as I pointed out from Acts 7:21.
Here God is seen as VERY strong, but not sovereign??? Thus, once again MAN”S sovereignty and God’s puppetry is exalted!!
4. He recreated me by His grace, but He also requires that I continue in it (Acts 13:43).
Salvation by GRACE plus CONTINUAL WORKS. And of course OUR sovereignty in the matter is greater than God’s as seen by the examples above???
5. I said that there were conditions if a person would be given to Christ…. God foresees our choices, not makes our choices, and it is on this basis that He chooses us so that we can accept Him.
[color:red]Works are exalted above grace:
1. I believe that God gives a person to Christ when they humble themselves and repent when convicted by the Holy Spirit. This passage does not say that a person cannot resist the Holy Spirit's conviction. In fact, the scriptures affirm that this already occurs. Act 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
We will not HUMBLE OURSELVES or REPENT (2 Tim 2:24-26) until changed BY the Holy Spirit, as Paul….. The unsaved do resist UNTIL THEY ARE MADE WILLING in the day of HIS POWER (but this is far more than just conviction), and the scriptures teach that all the elect will finally and fully be saved and not resist ultimately to their own destruction for Christ will not lose even one of His elect!.
2. I too believe that a man cannot be saved unless God draws him first. And just as God's many promises of blessing to Israel (Deuteronomy 7:13, 30:16 ect...) were contingent on their obedience to the voice of God, so is the promise of the resurrection of the righteous.
FAITH plus CONTINUAL OBEDIENCE = salvation? But, if one is truly saved he will desire to obey and has been granted the grace to do so. Not all Israel was elect!
2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
3. The first premise is only partially correct, for while God does desire that men be saved, He also desires that they do so willingly.
So, man’s will is SOVEREIGN? Man does accept God’s grace willingly, but they ONLY become willing in the DAY OF HIS POWER.
4. Yielding to God is not a work, just as believing in God is not a work.
Thus JoshT’s order of salvation, I YIELD, and then GOD RESPONDS. So God is my puppet??
[color:red]Denial of God’s elective purpose in salvation:
1. The Bible never indicates that God is determined to irresistably draw anyone to Him, He does wish to draw people to Himself, and He no doubt could do it irresistably if that were His will, but this is not indicated in scripture.
So election does not exist?
2. I see nothing in the scripture to indicate that a man cannot fully and finally resist the Holy Spirit (they are only elect if they do not). I also see plenty of proof that they can fall away afterwards.
Joe,<br>I was in no way trying to say Josh's errors were not serious. I have read this whole long thread and participated in it. I am not disagreeing with you except I would hesitate to say that Josh is unsaved because of his errors. I said " I would not assume to know if Josh is or is not a Christian. I do believe he is in error against the plain teaching of scripture."<br>The reason I am saying this is that Arminians can be saved, even if they are wrong about the sovereignty of God. R.C. Sproul said that for 5 years he resisted reformed teaching until he could deny it no longer. He was confronted with it over and over in the Bible until he could deny it no longer. He was also a Charismatic for a time. I believe it is safe to say he was a true Christian during this time, but he was wrong. I am not saying it is OK to be wrong. God holds us responsible for our errors. It is not His fault if we are not discerning of the truth, it is our own fault. If we have been warned and shown the truth and continue obstinate in that error, then I do doubt whether the Holy Spirit is indwelling that person. But I believe we can all be deceived temporarily in what we believe and still be Christians.<br>I hope and pray that this is the case with Josh and that God will give him a true understanding. If he is not a child of God I pray that God will have mercy on him and draw him to the Savior.<br>Susan
I agree whole heartedly that non-Calvinists maybe saved (I was) prior to knowing anything of the Doctrines of Grace. As matter a fact many NEVER come to know them at all. We are saved by grace alone...which does not imply that ALL will understand what that really entails.<br><br>In Josh T case I see something different than just Arminianism though. I see him believing and defending a righteousness which is by his works. I<br>see him "speaking" and "talking" of grace, but believing in his works. Since he believes this, how may he really be saved?
The key issue is always, "Does one TRULY believe in his/her heart what he/she confesses with their mouth?" If JoshT and all those like him, who are incontrovertibly semi-Pelagian/Arminians, are trusting in their "enduring to the end" or even upon their "free-will decision to believe upon Christ" as the ground of their salvation, then it impossible that they are genuinely converted.
I think you're making a leap to conclude that Josh is saying that we are saved by works. It is more evident that he saying our salvation is predicated on the condition of our hearts. <br><br>I don't understand your position that God cannot be sovereign and still allow us to forfeit our salvation. He doesn't lose any of his supreme, permanent authority by allowing believers the option of turning away from Him. And it certainly doesn't make him a puppet, as you say.<br><br>A gift is not forced, it's offered. <br><br>I don't know where I stand on this issue yet, although my default position is that we're unconditionally saved. <br><br>rjskal<br><br>
What??? I totally disagree! According to Romans 10:9, if he has trusted in Christ and believes in His resurrection, he'll be saved. If he believes he also must endure to the end and not fall away, that in no way means he's not converted. He'll probably just end up having lived a more Christ-like life than the rest of us.<br><br><br>