Response to first question:
I just don't think it is right to put God in a box and say "Oh God can't move in this way again" aside from the box that God has allowed Himself to be in as defined by Scripture. If we believe the Bible, than we must affirm with Psalm 115:3 that He is in heaven and does whatever He pleases. I admit that it doesn't seem the gifts are being used today, but that doesn't mean God can't use them again.
Could you give a scriptural quote that these things, once passing away, would be used again? If not, you fail your own burden of proof. And since there are no scriptures saying such, your claim could never be validated as true. Theology is the study of God. God has revealed many things about Himself and it is our responsibility to attempt to understand His revelation.
I spent 16 years in this junk. My experiences uphold my convictions that tongues, as defined by scripture, are not being used today. The gibberish being put forth as tongues has no examples in scripture; no examples in the prior 1900 years of church history; and is admittedly part of a dispensational hermeneutic which we all know is false. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. (NASB)
Are you using
whatever in the absolute sense?
I know there are PLENTY of people here and articles that can tear me apart, but I am not going to debate it and be ripped apart cuz 1) I don't know and 2) I don't think that believing that God can still use tongues today if He would so choose is detremental to my salvation.
You can't "tear apart" the truth. So, believing that God could add to scripture, if He so chooses would be OK also? That would deny my understanding of Sola Scriptura. Also, most people here prefer discussion over tearing others apart. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/chatter.gif" alt="" />
Response to second question:
Where does Scripture indicate that tongues have ceased?
Easy. But before I answer, let me warn you about a Sol
O Scriptura stance being indefensible. Let's not forget we have 1600 years of writings, experiences, councils and continuity of the Church to look to as well. If these gifts did not cease there should be plenty of accounts throughout history. One of my biggest issues with the charismatics is that there are
none in Church history prior to around 1900. Shouldn't this be a warning sign enough? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/flee.gif" alt="" /> If not, the hermeneutics should.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(Robertson's Word Pictures)
1Co 13:8 -
Love never faileth (h agaph oudepote piptei). New turn for the perpetuity of love. Piptei correct text, not ekpiptei, as in Luk_16:17. Love survives everything.
They shall be done away (katarghqhsontai). First future passive of katargew. Rare in old Greek, to make idle (argov), inoperative. All these special spiritual gifts will pass. It is amazing how little of human work lasts.
They shall cease (pausontai). Future middle indicative of pauw, to make cease. They shall make themselves cease or automatically cease of themselves.
When the perfect revelation came, the
Bible, we didn't need further revelation. That ceased and I must believe this to be a Christian. Scripture is fully revealed and .......Sola Scriptura, a tenet of the reformation. Likewise, once the supernatural gift of speaking in foreign languages had served it God ordained purpose they also passed. Today, we have scores of translations and even several variant ones in the same languages. Missionaries from all countries are visiting even America as a mission ground.
Response to third part:
I believe that some things have ceased. But I also am humble enough to admit that I don't know all the answers. Nor does anyone else on this site, dead or alive. Not the WCF, not Jonathan Edwards, not 20 year old me, Jeremy Zerby.
Me either, and I just turned 38. You got a head start on me; when you're 38 you'll have years more study. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> I do know a few things and even a couple of things real well. Nobody here has ever claimed absolute knowledge, but some will claim, and rightfully so, proper knowledge in many areas. To claim that nobody has ever understood any truths would be absurd.
I am not angry, I just think it is foolish for anyone, including MacArthur, to pretend they know it all when it comes to issues such as spiritual gifts cuz none of us truly do. MacArthur did a good job in his book, but even he is a human and may be wrong. Same with all the awesome men who's articles and sermons and books are posted on this site.
MacArthur never made that claim; if he did, quote him. If none of us "truly" know, how do you truly know this? If nobody truly knows, how do we discern the truth? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />
Just because someone may believe something different than someone else doesn't automatically damn a person. Especially on an unnecesary thing like spiritual gifts. I might be wrong, and if I am, I'll change what I believe. But I also might be right. Only God knows. And I am going to trust Him to reveal the answers to me from His word. That is what men of old did, and I respect what they say. But them being human, I am allowed to come to different conclusions than them, just as I am allowed to differ from anyone on this site on issues that don't effect salvation.
While there are issues of liberty I would be careful not to apply it simply to avert a choice or a proper stand so as not to offend. I believe you hold to what is called the "weak cessationist" view. I know others who hold this view as well. The basic idea is that while the gifts have seemingly passed away for most of history God may use them at His discretion at any time. My view is that scripture said prophecy would pass away and tongues when they fulfilled their purpose and Church history bears this out as fulfilled.
Hey, I was on campus the other day and the new buildings are really nice! Enjoy your year. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/thewave.gif" alt="" />
God bless,
william
