JE stated;
Where before you were using a dispensational hermeneutic, now your dispensational theology has surfaced.
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Steve replied;
Clearly you are feeling unsure of your arguments because you have brought out your pathetic hate word again. Last time you did so I adopted the policy of Proverbs 26:5; this time I shall adopt that of the preceding verse.
Steve I don’t know why you call this a
hate word. Many dispensationalists are Christians, just like many CTs are Christians. You really need to quit being so emotional. Moreover, this does nothing for your argument.
What is amazing is that
you yourself made this declaration that you interpret the Bible as do the dispensationalists when you said,
Yes, but the people of God are different under the NC than in the OC. Do you understand Gerstner's concern? He states: ‘According to Dispensationalism, Israel and the church are different in almost every way.’ HE adds, ‘The dispensational distinction between Israel and the church implicitly repudiates the Christian way of salvation…. If these are two different types of people, how can they have the same salvation?’ Clearly, you are being dispensational and are preaching another gospel. If you desire to retract your statement, fine, but as long as you maintain it, you remain what you have said you are.
JE stated;
'Once again you speak of “totally” different covenants.'
and
'...however you are saying that Christ and Abraham are involved in two “totally” different covenants.'
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Steve replied;
You have placed the word "totally" in inverted commas as if it were a direct quotation from me. It is not. I have never used the term 'Totally different' to describe the covenants, and nor would I.
Did I say they were quotations from you? Where? Steve I use
“….” to draw attention to certain words as well, not just for quoting others (example
here). YOU already KNOW this. It may be time for you to take another break, you seem <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/mad3.gif" alt="" />, but please understand that I still <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hugs.gif" alt="" /> you Steve, though your theology (in this area) is
![[Linked Image]](http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/PukeChicken.gif)
.
Now, your posts reveal “totally” different covenants. Here is an example:
In respect to the OC you
stated;
With respect, not so! If I drink out of a paper cup, I drink once and then the cup has filfilled its purpose as a cup, so I throw it away. Even a glass or a pottery cup eventually breaks after continual use; then again, it has fulfilled its purpose and can be discarded.
Twice here in this quote,
YOU state that the OC may be
thrown away or
discarded.
This is a complete doing away with. You have put God’s Covenant into a Hefty Bag and dumped it. Useless rubbish. This implies that God’s covenant is defective and not eternal. This illustrates “totally” different covenants—for many (Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic) are in your dispensational hefty bag.
What you are saying is that God made the Abrahamic Covenant and then did away with it in the Mosaic. Then God made the Mosaic Covenant and did away with it in the Davidic. Then God made the Davidic Covenant and did away with it in Christ. What you see is God “totally” doing away with one covenant (
throw it away and
discarded) and then making another, and then merely adding to these newer a few pieces of "trash" from the former. This is an incorrect view of the covenants and is dispensational. As I have STRESSED so may times, THERE IS ONE COVENANT, and with each age or dispensation it is further revealed. God does not need to add anything of the former covenant(s) to the newer ones,
because it is already there. However, in His divine wisdom, He "fulfills" the OC in progressive ways as the administration of the covenant proceeds in redemptive history. Do you see the difference?
Please note that your example of the pottery cup breaking is NOT Scriptural. The Covenant of God is eternal. His WORD is everlasting. Individuals stray away from the covenant(s) (Adam in the Garden, etc) and thus the cup is
not rubbish. It is not the cup that is defective, it is the human heart (Rom 8:3).
JE stated;
However, look at Heb 10 IN CONTEXT of the WHOLE book of Hebrews. Christ is the “fulfillment” of the OC. This is what “takes away the first” means. If they were “completely obliterated” then Heb 11 (the faith chapter) would not need to follow Heb 1-10 as an “example” of faith today (but why if it is obliterated). The NC is a “fulfillment” of the OC not its “complete obliteration.”
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Steve replied
With regard to Hebrews, I look forward to your overview of that book proving decisively from the text that the Old and New Covenant are one and the same. That will be very interesting.
The New is a progressive revelation of the Old. Are you saying there are TWO ways to God? Are you saying that the OC did not have faith? Are you saying the OC had no grace? Are you saying the church is not in the OC? Are "grace" and "faith" in the dispensational hefty bag or is there ONE covenant progressing through redemptive history? Please prove that the NC is not an extension and further revelation of the OC?