“I wasn’t aware that it was my responsibility to make your arguments??? Aren’t you capable???”

Yes, I am capable, but it is much easier for me, if you show the argument, since you know so much about both views and I will fill in the gaps.


Rev. 20:10:

“(1) Jesus taught that unsaved people suffer the Devil’s fate—Matt 25:41; (2) the verses following this verse depict resurrected human beings thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) ….The lake of fire signifies not extinction in opposition to existence, but torturous existence in the society of evil in opposition to the life in the society of God (paraphrase of Beasley-Murray).”

Bacchiocchi dealt with Matt. 25:41,46 and he wrote that people like you ignore 4 major considerations. The 1st consideration is that Jesus was not trying to define the essence of either eternal life or eternal death, but that the individual had 2 destinies. The particulars of each destiny is not discussed in the passage.

2nd, the fire is what is eternal, as your Stott quote addresses (The fire itself is termed “eternal” and “unquenchable,” but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proves indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed for ever, not tormented forever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which “rises for ever and ever.”), but you so quickly dismissed, with the statement, “However, their argument fails because Babylon cannot survive the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev 21:17), whereas the damned do survive, as Rev 21:8 and 22:15 bear witness.” As if everyone in Christendom would agree with you that the chronology of Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 must follow the event spoken of in Rev. 18:8, 18; 19:3. Is it not the end of the “city of man” that Babylon represents, and is this passage circular (in respect to time) as are the “seals”, “trumpets” and “bowls” culminating with the end of the earth? Being a “Amillennialist” , judgment , 2nd Coming and “The New Earth and Heaven” are the same event at that Last Day. If I am right , then “Her smoke rises up forever and ever” (19:3) is a significant statement in understanding Rev. 14: 11 and 20:10, as are O.T. Scripture such as Isaiah 34:9-10; “The streams of Edom shall not be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched, it’s smoke shall go up for ever and ever”.
Being a person who I would imagine, prides himself in having a systematic approach to Scripture, can you really say without a doubt that John’s use of fire and smoke to describe the fate of Babylon in 18:8 and 19:3 are not connected to the ante-type of Edom and Sodom and Gomorrah? BTW, is not God addressed as a “Consuming fire” in Heb. 12:29, and if so, is Stott really that far off in his description that the fire that destroys is the aspect of that which is eternal? Which leads to the 3rd point.

3RD, The fire is eternal as Bacchiocchi states, “not because of its endless duration, but because of its complete consumption and annihilation of the wicked. This is indicated clearly by the fact that the lake of fire, in which the wicked are thrown, is called the explicitly ‘the second death” (Rev. 20:14; 21:8), because it causes the final radical and irreversible extinction of life”. I have notice in all my reading of the traditionalist arguments of annihilation, they have a “hand full” of main verses that they use as their arsenal. Where are all the arguments in regards to the magnitude of verses which very clearly say that the wicked will “perish”, be “destroyed” and “die”, such as Matt. 7:13-14,John 3:16, John 5:24, Romans 6:23, 2Thess. 1:9 and etc, especially in the light of being demanding upon the annihilationist to stick to the clear meaning of such verses as Mt25:46 and Rev.20:10?

4th, “Jesus was offering a choice between destruction and life when He said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only few find it" (Matt 7:13-14).33 Here Jesus contrasts the comfortable way which leads to destruction in hell with the narrow way of trials and persecutions which leads to eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. The contrast between destruction and life suggests that the "eternal fire" causes the eternal destruction of the lost, not their eternal torment. (Bacchiocchi)”.


“However, annihilationism holds that the wicked dead will be resurrected to face a judgment prior to their extinction! Once again this theology is found wanting. Jude teaches that God’s judgment of S&G furnishes an earthly temporal example of the final fate of the wicked. Jude means that the still burning site of the cities is a warning picture of the eternal fires of Hell! According to Philo, “even to this day the visible tokens of the indescribable disaster are pointed out in Syria –ruins, cinders, brimstone, smoke and murky flames which continue to rise from the ground as from a fire still smoldering beneath” (JND Kelly, A Commentary on the Epistle of Peter and Jude). As the people of S&G have a temporal existence on earth and suffered temporarily, the eternal body has a permanent existence that suffers eternally. “


“5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently DESTROYED those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the GREAT DAY,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an EXAMPLE in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”

J. Edwards is willing to say that verse 7 is a “temporal example” of the judgment to come, but somehow the annihilationist is “found wanting”, though this example gives us a vivid picture of that “GREAT DAY”. Noah and the Ark is also an example of God’s judgment then and as well as to come (except with fire 2Peter 3:10, which again supports the annihilationist). Noah was also a type of Christ (though not the actual Christ) as was Moses, Joseph, David, and a host of others. Would it not be a narrow view that the ante-types were not a significant truth leading to a even bigger truth?
I am simply amazed, in that my only premise of this particular post was to show that the annihilationist does seem to have a legitimate claim to be heard, not necessarily “taken hook, line and sinker” for one’s doctrinal position on hell, but to be heard nonetheless. Even F.F. Bruce commented on the scholarly work of Fudge’s book, as did Michael Horton, but J. Edwards, the seminary graduate, can only see him as a “heretic”.
Geomic