Thanks Pilgrim,

I tend to throw a lot of questions at you but you are the most readily available if I need a sound response on the Reformed POV - I should spring for a cap or t-shirt or something to show my gratitude.

One more question:

in debating with non-Reformed Christians it is quite difficult to bring them to truth - even on an intellectual level - as we know it.

It usually comes down to - well if I'm not elect I'm screwed anyway - even if I pray for salvation it's futile because if my name isn't written in the book of life it's a lost cause. They will often tell me that this doctrine would be a major source of frustration (& possibly even despair) for them if they believed it.

Of course for those who know they are elect the doctrine is not a problem but is actually a major source of comfort.

But for those (even they who are elect and do not yet know it) who are on the outside, unconditional election seems downright catastrophic.

what do you think?

The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine