Assume a living individual "A" who at a certain point in his life, with no consideration of his own awareness of the fact or lack thereof, is regarded by God as justified.
Are there any circumstances at all that would cause "A", at a later point in his life, to be regarded by God as not justified?
I can not grant you your wish of a yes or no answer- I don't believe in such
- Justification is a one-time thing- one in which cannot be taken away from a person. Now saying this- this personal belief of mine is held by liberal Catholics (of which I associate myself with). We [liberal Catholics] hold that sometimes the grace aspect of Justification can be taken away if one renounces the God of the Trinity but can always be regained by repenting this action. The Council of Trent stated that the grace aspect of Justification could be lost via a mortal sin in which one is unrepentant. This is a point of contention still today in the Church and was addressed by Vatican II- but not concluded. I am also curious to know your thoughts on this. If I am a Catholic and if you believe Catholics go to hell- what about me- a Catholic who was born in a protestant Church (baptist) who was Justified in a protestant setting and accepted Him and was baptized in the protestant Church. I'm technically Justified in the protestant way- does that not mean Catholic or not even by your words- I am going to heaven?
Baptismal regeneration is a doctrine most vehemently rejected by Protestants as being "works-based" and NOT of grace.
I find this comment fascinating. Is it your premise then that saying one must be baptized either physically or have a yearning to be baptized is "works based?" If this is your premise, I find it quite illogical. If this is not your premise- please correct me.
Thus we cannot recognize either the Roman State Church as being a part of Christ's Church on earth or in heaven nor accept the overwhelming majority of Rome's members are being part of the body of Christ, aka: Christian.
So, despite the fact that the Catholic Church believes in the core tenants of Christianity- accepts Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins, acknowledges we are saved through His blood which is imparted to us by His Holy grace through our faith and we acknowledge God in three persons, etc we are all going to hell due to the fact we have minor quibbles with certain declarations of the protestant church pertaining to Justification? Hmmm...
Thus we cannot recognize either the Roman State Church as being a part of Christ's Church on earth or in heaven nor accept the overwhelming majority of Rome's members are being part of the body of Christ, aka: Christian.
Allow me to pull some quotes from the Declarations of the Council of Trent on the Catholic view of Justification
CHAPTER I
THE IMPOTENCY OF NATURE AND OF THE LAW TO JUSTIFY MAN
The holy council declares first, that for a correct and clear understanding of the doctrine of justification, it is necessary that each one recognize and confess that since all men had lost innocence in the prevarication of Adam,[3] having become unclean,[4] and, as the Apostle says, by nature children of wrath,[5] as has been set forth in the decree on original sin,[6] they were so far the servants of sin[7] and under the power of the devil and of death, that not only the Gentiles by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated or to rise therefore, though free will, weakened as it was in its powers and downward bent,[8] was by no means extinguished in them.
CHAPTER IV
A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE
In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.
This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:
Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]
CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION
Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.
Of this disposition it is written:
He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarded to them that seek him;[24] and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee;[25] and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin;[26] and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost;[27] and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you;[28] finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.[29]
One of the few differences, IMO, comes with the Catholic belief proclaimed:
CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]
...this is still not "works based faith"
CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.
For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46] <---- doesn't sound like an "Catholic work-based view" to me...
I've seen the following snippet reworded and misquoted by several Anti-Catholic peeps. This merely states that even if we are justified- we are not "free" from not following the commandments.
CHAPTER XI
THE OBSERVANCE OF THE COMMANDMENTS AND THE NECESSITY AND POSSIBILITY THEREOF
But no one, however much justified, should consider himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one should use that rash statement, once forbidden by the Fathers under anathema, that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified.
For God does not command impossibilities, but by commanding admonishes thee to do what thou canst and to pray for what thou canst not, and aids thee that thou mayest be able.[58]
His commandments are not heavy,[59] and his yoke is sweet and burden light.[60]
For they who are the sons of God love Christ, but they who love Him, keep His commandments, as He Himself testifies;[61] which, indeed, with the divine help they can do.
Here are some official cannons coming out of Trent that may be of some interest:
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
Canon 20.
If anyone says that a man who is justified and however perfect is not bound to observe the commandments of God and the Church, but only to believe,[122] as if the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life without the condition of observing the commandments, let him be anathema. <---- another one that is often misinterpreted or misquoted
Canon 22.
If anyone says that the one justified either can without the special help of God persevere in the justice received,[123] or that with that help he cannot, let him be anathema.
These were some of the proclamations of the Council of Trent- some of which have become questioned under Vatican II. While I certainly agree the Catholic Church and our Separated Brothern have differences in the view of Justification- we both believe that one is saved through His grace by our faith. The only difference in this is that Catholics also believe that one should be baptized as well as a preparation of One to receive His Blessed Spirit. The Catholic Church does
not believe that by Baptism alone you are saved- and such a statement about the Church is quite simply false.
Lastly, as to your jovial remark about all those who before Luther went to hell, you are assuming, of course, that everyone before Luther was a faithful Roman Catholic. The truth is that there have always been those both within and without Rome's web who have been at odds with its teachings. Some survived with their opposition, e.g., Luther and many did not. But nonetheless, there has always been God's elect throughout history who have professed the truth as it is found in Christ and in His infallible Word. Though they have been and in fact always will be but a remnant, they are the sheep of His pasture and enjoy the grace of God in Him.
So St. Augustine- who is revered even by Protestants is in Hell? The Church Fathers of Nicea whom protected the early Church from heretical doctrines and laid the foundation of Christianity are in Hell? I find this point disturbing in the greatest.
The Catholic Church- like every denomination, is not perfect. However; the Catholic Church is constantly under attack by protestants as "The Church of Satan" "The Church of the Antichrist" "That intolerable church" etc. It seems...strange to me that while the Catholic Church opens it's arms and says since the days of the Blessed Pope John XXIII (Disclaimer: this is not an exact quote- but his views) "My Brothern, while we are separated by our views of secondary doctrines- we are still both members of Christ's family. And, while we have our sibling rivalries and conflicts- the Church shall never forget that you are our brothern whom are separated from our Church." This view of the Blessed Pope John XXIII is my personal motto- I still attend my Baptist church from time to time at the behest of my parents- and I am honestly taken aback by the Anti-Catholic bigotry I must endure there. My response is always that "I believe in Him and the core doctrines laid out through Him- I go the same place you go- heaven. I worship the same God who is in 3 Blessed Persons, etc." We are
all brothers in Christ even if we have our differences on some points in doctrine and, as long as we believe what He laid out in His scriptures- we are all apart of the same family. The Catholic Church is not perfect as no Chuch is- but it is changing into an entity more scriptually sound
entity through the recent enlightenments of Vatican II.
