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Pilgrim said:
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Joe k said:
Violating the will of man is too dramatic of a phrase to use. I do not like it, therefore do not equate bending or compelling man to equal this. Regeneration is not taking the old nature and just making it better, it is recreating something that is dead and then is alive. Perhaps it is semantics with us, I know you subscibe to the complete sov of God in all things Pilgrim. This is what equate wiuth bending or <span style="background-color:yellow">compelling man against their will</span>. There is no other way to look at it.
Joe,

It may be semantics, but I tend to think not. Why? because of the highlighted statement in your above quote. God does not, in fact cannot, "compel man against his will". Everything, everywhere and in all circumstances which man decides (wills) is according to his nature. A bad tree CANNOT bear good fruit. The "will" is not some autonomous faction within man that acts on its own. But rather, the will is the "servant" of the mind and affections. Edwards is probably best known for dealing with this subject in great detail which is the most effect apologetic against ALL non-Calvinist (biblical) views, e.g., "free-will". Your view appears to be simply the flip-side of free-will, which says that man can do that which is contrary to his nature. Substituting God as the proximate cause of a man's decisions doesn't change things. In either case, man is given the ability to choose that which is contrary to his nature, i.e., the "will" acts independently of the mind and affections. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" />

Re: regeneration. Here is another area where we appear to disagree. You appear to make regeneration a "creation" of a new nature rather than the historic doctrine wherein it is said that the nature is re-created. Man only has ONE nature. So in regeneration, there is not a killing of the original corrupt nature and a ex nihilo creation of a totally new nature. What happens is that THE corrupt nature is re-created, i.e., it is changed. Where a spiritual, God ward disposition was "dead", it is resurrected (made alive) thus positively effecting how the will acts. Paul eludes to this when he says to "put off the old man. . . and put on the new man", i.e., the residual affects of the original corrupt nature are to be denied control and full reign of the new nature (disposition) allowed.

It is through secondary causes that God directs the steps (decisions) of men according to their nature (disposition). But He never forces man to act contrary to that nature; only according to that nature. Johan's quotations from the Canon's of Dordt teach exactly this. God may withhold/restrain the unregenerate from sinning, as was the case with Abimelech. But God does not nor can He force any man to sin or to do that which is right IF it is contrary to his nature. God Himself cannot do that which is contrary to His nature and again, likewise, He does not and cannot force His image bearers to act contrary to their nature.

In His grace,

Let us look at what scripture says instead of my words;

Luke 14:23
23And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

There is the same word I used. COMPEL

1) to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain

a) by force, threats, etc.

b) by permission, entreaties, etc.

c) by other means

There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.