I have read through all the material referenced by your two links. I have also read each individual reply in this thread and your responses to them. My conclusion: your view is unsubstantiated by the biblical record.
You have accused John Murray of basing his exegesis of Matt 19:9 on a faulty assumption, i.e., that divorce was permitted. But your reasons for charging Dr. Murray with an erroneous exegesis are based upon a faulty assumption of your own, i.e., that the Fall had no effect on the state of man, and his further relationships with other men, particular in this area of divorce. I think that there is no need to go into all the different misinterpretations you offered in those two sources for there is one that shows the fallacy of your view quite sufficiently. Ironically, it is the previous verse to which you take exception to the "exception" clause of Matt 19:9:
Matthew 19:8 (ASV) "He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so."
The Lord Christ mentions Moses not to establish the origin of divorce but rather as the one to whom much that had been known and practiced by oral tradition was given to put in writing. A perfect example of this is the Decalogue. It is incontrovertible that all that the Decalogue teaches, the Ten Commandments, was known and established as the moral law of God, immediately after the Fall. (Rom 5:12-14) Even though there was no written law prohibiting murder, it was established in the hearts of men that this was a grievous sin; one worthy of death to the perpetrator. (cf. Gen 4:8ff; 9:6)
This irrefutable truth goes to show that what the Lord Christ was referring to when He said: "Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so." is that due to the noetic effects of the Fall, GOD had allowed divorce among His people. There is no mention whatsoever of divorce as a sin, but rather it was something which GOD had given to Moses as legally legitimate. Secondly, we must recognize that this broad treatment of divorce was given to Moses as part and parcel of the covenant established with theocratic Israel; i.e., particular to the Old Covenant and the nation of Israel. Being that I hold to a non-theonomic view, this law was abrogated by the establishing of the New Covenant in Christ. This again is clearly seen by the passage under consideration; Matt. 19:8, 9.
With the establishment of the New Covenant, the law of divorcement was modified to reflect the righteousness of GOD in Christ. It did not annul the noetic effects of the Fall, but rather it magnified it. A breaking of covenant with GOD through the practice of sin was made to appear even more sinful and its effects were eternal. (cf. 1Cor 6:9, 10). Thus adultery as pertaining to the flesh is paradigmatic of that spiritual adultery which leads to permanent divorce; i.e., damnation. Thus the Lord Christ maintains that those who have entered into a marriage covenant and commit adultery effectively break that covenant and are subject to being cast off. When GOD "divorces" those who have made covenant through a profession of faith and thereafter gone after other gods, GOD is not "bound" to that faithless individual, but remains "free" as the innocent party. So, even though GOD "hates divorce", He is yet bound to divorce all those who commit spiritual adultery against Him.
To the matter of divorce on the grounds of desertion, a similar biblical analogy is established in that all those who went after "other gods" were not only guilty of adultery but desertion/abandonment of that oath and covenant established by such individuals. Thus, in the milieu of marriage, a spouse who abandons/deserts the one to whom he/she has vowed to keep covenant, releases the innocent party and having broken that covenant is guilty of a most heinous sin and leaves the innocent party, the one left is thus allowed to divorce and remarry, for they are no longer "bound" (Gk: doulow, i.e., as a slave to the other, free. (cf. Rom 6:16)
The bottom line is that Murray's exegesis of Matt 19:9 is established and in full agreement with the biblical record. On the other hand, your view is fallacious and guilty you are guilty of sophistry.
I believe scripture should be taken as a whole and to not base an entire theological believe on a 1 verse wonder taken out of context. Namely Matt 19:9
MT 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
Historically, a man could divorce his wife for any reason, even burning his food. The Pharisees are once again attempting to make Jesus look bad in front of the people by seeing if he will agree with Moses or not.
MT 19:4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,' 5 and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
This is another wise and beautiful statement by Christ. Not only does he reemphasize on scripture, but he acknowledges that the two become one, God joins (binds) them, and commands them not to separate.
MT 19:7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
Ah, the ways of the World shine through and again they are trying to make Jesus appear inconsistent with Moses.
A HARDENED HEART
MT 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Historically Moses had to be the Judge over the land long ago, “It was a dirty job sometimes, but someone had to do it”. Along with being the Judge came responsibility and questions of divorce from the people surrounding him. Jesus did not say whether Moses was right or wrong in making the divorce decree, Jesus merely stated the fact that Moses made the divorce decree allowable because the people’s hearts were hard. Jesus then expanded upon that and stated “But it was not this way from the beginning.” In other words, divorce is not in Gods original design for marriage.That reminds me of someone else’s heart who was hard… Exodus 7:13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.
MT 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Jesus is not agreeing with or allowing divorce in this statement, if fact if you were caught in adultery you didn’t divorce your wife… she would have been stoned by the hardhearted people. Jesus is once again stating a fact here that has historical value. A divorce certificate was not made to benefit the man from divorcing his wife, a divorce certificate was given to the wife to prove that she was not guilty of adultery. Once again, she would have been stoned for adultery, that was their way. John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Sarcastically speaking to the pro-choice (pro-divorce) people, why divorce your wife, when you can just stone her, but be sure to harden your heart good and plenty first.
MT 19:10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." MT 19:11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
Ah, so true, but the response of so many in the World today is: I can always remarry if this one doesn’t work out.
Your misinterpretation of Matt. 19:9 and entire theology (concerning divorce) is based on a verse taken completely out of context and is in contradiction with other passages of scripture.
Just because your view is popular among the world and Christendom does not mean it is the correct biblical view. Your interpretation may seem like an easy way out of marriage until you hold it to the light.
Tell me, have you ever looked at a woman lustfully that was not your wife? Bingo, your are guilty of “pornia” adultery and your wife has the right to divorce you according to your definition/interpretation. Caught in your own web, eh?
Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
One of the things that I love about God and his Word is that through the guidance of his Holy Spirit, even a simpleton like me can know his Word with the greatest of ease.
MadMax, looks around the room at the hundreds or even thousands of books in the Theologians library, then turns to point and blow the dust off the book that needs to be used the most …The Bible.
Much like the knowledge of the Sovereignty of God, I can’t make you believe or give you the measure of faith to know. I can only show you the Truth and hope that God will open your heart through his Holy Spirit.
[/quote]MadMax, looks around the room at the hundreds or even thousands of books in the Theologians library, then turns to point and blow the dust off the book that needs to be used the most …The Bible. [/quote] And the Apostle Paul would answer madmax saying, "bring with thee, the books, but especially the parchments" (2 Tim 4:13).
MadMax, looks around the room at the hundreds or even thousands of books in the Theologians library, then turns to point and blow the dust off the book that needs to be used the most …The Bible.
You certainly have a propensity for arrogance madmax. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> Although we would all agree that a 1000 theological books have no superior authority to God's infallible and inerrant written Word, in contradistinction to you, we would also hold that your private interpretation of that Word of God has no superiority to the author's of those 1000+ theological books. Your private interpretation must be held under the light of the Word of God no less than any other.
Now, the real rub comes when we consider your "expertise" compared to that of men such as Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Owen, Edwards, Spurgeon, Gerstner, Murray, et al. They ALL were indwelt with the same Spirit of God Who you claim guides you. Now, that poses a serious problem, eh? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" /> To be perfectly honest... I'll trust my knowledge of the original languages and exegetical skills rather than yours. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I believe scripture should be taken as a whole and to not base an entire theological believe on a 1 verse wonder taken out of context. Namely Matt 19:9 . . .
Come on madmax, you already gave the 2 links to your writings on this subject. And, you have copy/pasted many portions of them already throughout this thread. Is this the best you can do is to continue pasting the same stuff here over and over again? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />
You haven't interacted with the several replies that have asked you to exegete the text of Matt 19:9. You have only given what YOU consider to be a cogent interpretation of the passage. Since you were so quick to denigrate Dr. John Murray's exegesis, I would have expected a counter exegesis with an equal professionalism and expertise of the Greek, etc. Are you going to do this for us or not? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />
Also, I must conclude that you are totally obsessed with yourself, for looking at how this thread is structured, you have spent more time replying to yourself than anyone else. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Really now.... !!
To myself and many others this is a very simple concept. What I find difficult to explain is your lack of understanding. I can only assume that you have been blinded as a pawn by the current course that this world is continuing on, which is to say we are witnessing the world become more like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and yet you dismiss it out of your blindness to the Word.
I have thoroughly explained my point to you using a vast amount of scripture. I have also successfully refuted your fallacies using Sola Scriptura.
You are holding to beliefs about divorce that are not consistent with biblical teachings.
MT 19:10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." MT 19:11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
If you can’t accepts Christ’s teachings on marriage, then maybe you should not get married. If you don’t understand the responsibility to your spouse and proper direction from God, then no you should not get married. For if you do not understand even his most simple teachings on this subject, you will most likely end up living in adultery til the very end of your days.
Once again, I have thoroughly answered and responded to your posts. If you choose to ignore God and his Word, that is your choice, but you are without excuse now that you have been shown the Truth.
If you choose to ban me from this forum, so be it, God is still in control. I will most likely not respond to this post again, since it takes the Holy Spirit to change your heart and mind, not me talking until I am blue in the face.
God Bless See you in heaven, if you are truly saved.
dear Mad, We are still waiting for your comment about the exception clause Jesus stated in Matthew 19:9. Please don't link us to an article on some other website. Summarize your belief here and let us interact with it. You cannot ignore this crucial verse, and with the plain reading of scripture by a simplton like myself (who only has a few hundred theology books), it is quite clear that Jesus is allowing for divorce on the grounds of immorality. His words seem plain to me, unless you have a unique way to explain them away?
Fred
Oh, by the way, are you a fan of Bill Gothard?
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given."
According to your logic, this means that we should not marry, period.
I also ask you what you think of Matt. 19:12:
Quote
For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.
According to your logic, this means that we all ought to "make ourselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."
We are allowed to divorce for reason of adultery, though certainly not required to do so. If an unbelieving spouse leaves, however, we are not encouraged to be reconciled, but rather "God has called us to peace" (I Cor. 7:15).
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
I am posting at least one more time, not for the sake of argument, for there are those among you that are posting without even reading and in stubbornness, but rather I am posting for those that will read God's Word concerning the matter of marriage and divorce.
I read through this paper today and am humbled by it's use and display of scripture. Also for the historical input that is so relevant to this matter.
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Come on madmax, you already gave the 2 links to your writings on this subject. And, you have copy/pasted many portions of them already throughout this thread. Is this the best you can do is to continue pasting the same stuff here over and over again? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />
