The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Passion movie and the 2nd Commandment

Gerry,

Billy Graham and all those who use similar methodologies, thanks to Charles Finney, have been deceiving hundreds of thousands, no actually millions of people for decades. Countless individuals have been convinced that they are Christians and all is well with their soul, when in fact they know absolutely nothing of Christ, personally. These deceivers are masters at appealing to and controlling the emotions of their hearers in conjunction with preaching a false gospel. This film, brings this type of deception to a new level, that's all. It's nothing more than what Paul spoke of in 2Cor 11:4:

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or [if] ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept, ye do well to bear with [him]."

So, we should not be so shocked at what the film can and in all likelihood will accomplish for the kingdom of Satan, but in truth, it is all for the Kingdom of God in that it is fulfilling the LORD'S sovereign purposes. We are not only in a time of deception but also of purging for the Church. The Lord is using influences both from without and from within to expose false teachers and those who have a spurious faith. And in doing so, this is to strengthen and in a measure give a wake-up call to those of us who are "lazy" in the faith.

In His Grace,

Amen and Amen Pilgrim.

That film , by the sound of it (I've no wish to see it) is just Pure Popery <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />

And the news media/newspapers are backed by liberal biased enviromental peace-nics but I still read and watch them now and then. Most of the "Christian" publishers are owned by money grubbing liberal corporations, but I still read their books now and then.

Don't recall recommending either of the men you mention, just was posting some information for others to read and use their discernment over - glad you did :-)

Gerry,


Excellent point. I think you may very well be right.

A relevant article from The Highway: The Second Commandment.

Roman Catholicism is COUNTERFEIT Christianity to begin with.

So, what do you guys believe is the extent of the 2nd commandment and what is the extent of what qualifies as a graven image? Is it solely something visual? Or could one be breaking it verbally by, in a sermon, emotionally describing hypothetical but probable details of what went on during the crucifixion?

I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line. Would someone reading the script of Mel Gibson's movie constitute breaking the 2nd commandment?

Dan,

This link has been posted elsewhere, in another thread, but in case you haven't come across it, you can access it by clicking here: Sermon on the Second Commandment, by Van Reenen.

It may help you decide where to "draw the line". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Is image not visual Dan <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> ?

Very good point.

Pilgrim, could you elaborate on Billy Graham as one who "decieves?" I'm not saying I necessarily disagree, I'm just curious what you fully mean.

I think you need to go beyond the "external", Mark, as Jesus did when He taught the people and us through Scripture, e.g., "The Sermon on the Mount". Perhaps you might consider the similarities between the words, "image" and "imagination"? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />

You might also read the article I linked to in my reply to Dan. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Henry,

Doubtless I could list many things which, IMHO, makes Billy Graham a purveyor of deceit. But here are a few that I think are salient:

• He preaches "another gospel"; the gospel of "Easy Believism".
• He believes that men can be saved after death via a "second chance".
• His Crusades use a "Madison Avenue" ploy, ala: Charles Finney, which plays upon people's ignorance and emotions.
• He gives assurance of salvation to all who "come forward", even though he openly admits that perhaps only 4% are actually saved.

I can attest to the verity of these things having worked with the Billy Graham Crusade Association many years ago. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,

It seems to me that the command to not make any graven images(idols) is in reference to idolatry and not the making if things in general. After all, was Joseph's carpentry idolatrous? The command to refrain from making images is tied to the implication that they are being made for the use of worship.

The author of the article you linked to also pointed out, as i agree, that no physical image can suffice to characterize God, and must not be attempted.

However, in reference to the Passion, we are not talking about God the Father, whose "appearance" is beyond comprehension, but rather God's physical incarnation in Jesus Christ. Obviously, this incarnation was visibly and physically witnessed by other people.

I strongly believe that worshipping a graven image of either the Father or the Son would be idolatry, but when it comes to the issue of images in general, apart from worship, is there not a distinction between God the Father and Jesus Christ? I can't possibly comprehend God the Father via any visible or physical impressions, and thus can't possibly due him justice with some created image.

However this is not exactly the same with Christ. He came here physically and other people visibly saw him. He was tangible and material. Now i would think that there would be multiple problems with trying to create an accurate resemblance of what he looked like, one big reason being, at least to my knowledge, we don't know. But what i'm mainly wondering about here is the principle itself of images as it relates to God the Father and the physical Jesus Christ. Is there no variation?

Am i breaking the second commandment when i visualize in my mind Christ on the cross? Or when i visualize imagery in the Psalms such as lying in the shadow of His wings? I'm guessing that you don't believe in a distinct break between physical images and mental, because after all the deadliest form of idols for most people are probably rooted in their mind. Trying to explore this issue..

Let me put it this way: Would it be appropriate if I spoke of Jesus as having long blond hair, deep blue eyes, and alabaster skin? Does it create for you an image? Is that image true, i.e., does it accurately represent Christ?

Dan,

The traditional, historical view, which I also have come to understand as the biblical teaching concerning the 2nd Commandment is that it consists of two parts: 1)the prohibition of making ANY images of any kind, which supplant the Deity or as a representation of any of the three persons of the Trinity. 2) The prohibition of either worshiping those images or using them to facilitate the worship of the Deity, in part or in total.

This prohibition against creating "images" would include one's "imagination" where it is used to create a "likeness" of one or all of the three persons. In other words, it would be sin to try to conjure up an "appearance" of God; to create in one's mind a picture of what God looks like. That should cover one of your questions, particular where you asked, "Am i breaking the second commandment when i visualize in my mind Christ on the cross?"

Now, as to the "Passion of Christ" movie and how/if it is in violation of the 2nd Commandment, given that the God was seen as human flesh in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, the incarnate God WAS "God in the flesh". That is, the Lord Christ was no "representation" but the real thing. People didn't converse or walk with an "image" made with hands or with an apparition that was the result of one's vivid imagination. (Jh 1:14; Col 2:9; 1Tim 3:16; 1Jh 4:2)

The salient issue is that of the duel natures of Christ, which was established once for all at the Fourth Ecumenical Council, held at Chalcedon, in 451. One of the fundamental statements of that Creed is that the two natures of Christ are "inseparable"; i.e., we cannot alienate the divine nature from the human nature. Thus, for someone to play the part of the Lord Christ, without dishonoring, diminishing or distorting His person as God incarnate, the actor would have to display BOTH the perfect divinity AND the perfect humanity of the Lord Jesus Christ. In short, that person would have to BE Jesus Christ. Every thought, word and deed; everything must exude perfect holiness. For the Lord Christ told His disciples,

John 14:9 (KJV) "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?"

One must ask, Is it even conceivable that a sinful human being could faithfully become an "image" of God in the exact manner as Jesus Christ? What human being, who knows anything of the True and Living God, would have the audacity to think that they could portray God in the flesh? Is it even possible that a man, even the most righteous man on earth, could even exhibit but one of Christ's attributes in such a way as to not blaspheme the very name of God?

A secondary but still important matter is that an actor's main responsibility is to play a part so well, that those in the audience will not see the actor, per se, but the individual being portrayed. In short, the main objective is to get the audience to "identify" with the person the actor is portraying . . . aka: imaging another. The overwhelming reviews that have come out state that after seeing this film, one is driven to at least "contemplation" and even "worship". But one must ask, What is it that people contemplate? And to what are they offering worship? Is it the one True and Living God Who has revealed Himself in the inspired text? or is it the image displayed on the screen by an actor?

One thing I do know, is that the Lord Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again from the dead and now sits at the right hand of God in glory with a glorified/resurrection body. This same Jesus sent the Holy Spirit as His "replacement/representative" to both reveal Him and to dwell in those whom He has revealed Himself by the Spirit. To the degree (quality) we know Christ, we will honor Him and worship Him in spirit and truth. We are to walk by faith and not by sight!

"Should the Lord Jesus appear now to any of us in His majesty and glory, it would not be to our edification nor consolation. For we are not meet nor able, by the power of any light or grace that we have received, or can receive, to bear the immediate appearance and representation of them. His beloved apostle John had leaned on His bosom probably many a time in his life, in the intimate familiarities of love; but when He afterward appeared to him in His glory, "he fell at his feet as dead" (Rev. 1:17). And when He appeared to Paul, all the account he could give thereof was "that he saw a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun"; where-upon he and all that were with him 'fell to the ground' (Acts 26:13,14)." — John Owen "The Glory of Christ" p. 174

In His Grace,