The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Jesus-fully God and fully man??

Our assistant pastor was preaching last night on Jesus'last night before the crucifixion. He said a couple of things that really got my attention and I'm having a problem deciphering them. The first thing he said was that it was while Jesus was praying in the garden that He "made the decision" to go through with the crucifixion. He had asked His Father if the cup could be taken from Him but realized that was not to happen, so He decided to go ahead with it and from that point we don't see Jesus resisting. It seems to me that Jesus never had to make a decision. His death had been foretold for centuries and He had even told His own disciples that it was going to happen. Oh, that pastor also said that he doesn't believe that Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen to Him, which brings up the second part of my post. Our pastors teach that Jesus laid aside the "independent use" of some of His divine attributes while He was on earth, so that He didn't know all the future or read men's minds all the time, only when the Father allowed Him to. I know that Jesus did read peoples' minds at times, he knew the Samaritan woman's past, etc. and He said that He didn't know when His own second coming would be, that only the Father knows that. I can't seem to find any verses that directly speak to Jesus setting aside His divine attributes, unless it is what Phil. 2 means. If He did do that, would He still be FULLY God and FULLY man?
Julie

Julie,

First, welcome! I pray that you will find wonderful fellowship here, as I have, and that God would guide you and your family as you seek your Reformed roots.

If I heard a pastor say what you've described, it would disturb me as it did you. It sounds like the old Arminian argument that totally denies the fact that Jesus was the Lamb slain for sinners before the foundations of the world.

I ran across this article entitled Christ's Predetermined Death:

http://www.the-highway.com/predetermined_Harbach.html

Thanks for your reply; I found some wonderful articles at the site you suggested. I'm still wondering about the idea that Jesus gave up the use of some of His divine attributes while on earth. If anyone has anything about that I'd appreciate it :-)
Julie

The only thing that I can think of is that the physical body of Jesus couldn't be everywhere are the same time.

Tom

This is a topic which many have gone astray from what the Bible teaches us about the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. It seems that here is another instance where the historical Creeds are so valuable in that they not only provide a biblical answer/teaching to such questions, but they guard against heresy coming into the Church. Now, the Chalcedon Creed is the one which speaks of the two natures of Christ; how we should understand the relationship between the two natures. Also remember, that the Creed's purpose isn't to explain everything about the two natures of Christ in their inter-relationship, but to set down the basic teaching of the incarnation.

The Lord Jesus Christ was of two natures; one divine, one human. The divine was just that... 100% unadulterated God. It was the Son, the second person of the Trinity which took upon Himself human flesh. God cannot "divest Himself" of any attribute. God's attributes are part of His being, by definition. For example, if God "gave up" His Omnipotence, then He would cease to be God. And that's not a "good thing"! The Bible tells us that in person of Jesus of Nazareth dwelt all the attributes of the Godhead. (Col 2:9) And when people looked upon Him, whether they could comprehend Him or not, they also saw the Father. (Jh 14:9) In Him God was; not in part but fully. (Jh 1:14) On the other hand, the Lord Christ was fully man in every respect. (Phil 2:7-8; Heb 2:17; 4:15)

We can see the sovereignty of divine nature in the miracles He performed, such as the feeding of the turning water into wine, feeding the 4000/5000, calming the storm, walking on water, raising of the dead, curing diseases, etc. And in His humanity, He was not Omniscient, for He knew not what the time was for His return, or who touched a tassel on His garment, (Lk 8:45) etc.

What must be kept firm is that the two natures cannot be separated, e.g., as is done with any representation of Christ, nor can they be intermixed, as it appears at least one of your pastors may be doing. The "mystery" which is incomprehensible to us and which is surely understandable since we are dealing with God taking upon human flesh, is how these two natures co-existed economically; in every day life. What kind of relationship did they have in their uniqueness yet in their being joined together in the one body of Jesus?

[color:"blue"]The Chalcedonian Creed[/color]

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

In His Grace,

Hello Julie,
I think the most helpful example of the two natures of our Lord is found in His stilling of the storm (Mark 4:35-41).
When Jesus comes into the boat, He's tired; He's suffering from human frailty (elsewhere we read of Him suffering grief, hunger and thirst). He is Man, as though He were not God.

But when the storm arises and the disciples come and wake Him in alarm, 'He arose and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Peace, be still!" And the wind ceased and there was a great calm.' He was (is!) God; God as though He were not man. And He was both these things all the time.

However, when He walked upon this earth, His glory was veiled (Isaiah 53:2-3). Only Peter, James and John saw His true, Divine glory (Mark 9:1ff).

I hope that's helpful,
Steve

Hey Julie.

Pilgrim's reply to your question is the most including yet, but I hope to add to it with mine.

Christ's divine nature was never emptied, only his glory. In Philippians 2:6, Paul says that Christ, "Emptied himself." What does this mean? That he, "Took on the nature of even a servant."

Christ took on a human nature by becoming incarnate. Simply by taking on that additional nature, he emptied himself of his godly glory. Look at his life, it was the most humble any man could ask for. To be born in a manager, to work as a carpenter, and to die on a cross.

Neither of Christ's natures was hindered in any way. Although Christ's human will was to not die on the cross, his divine will was, for he and the father are one, and it was the father's will that Christ would redeem the elect.

Christ indeed did have all the attributes of godliness, including omnipresence. "Where two or more are gathered in my name, I am between them."

I hope this helps.

Colby.