The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Are those who die young always part of the elect?

Are you so sure? It seems that John the Baptist was regenerated even in the womb: When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how has it happened that the mother of my Lord would come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy" (Luke 1:41--44).

Wrong question! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The right question is "Why is ANY person saved?"

Why do you have this idea that unborn infants and babies are somehow more deserving of salvation than an adult? You have said that you can't imagine God sending an infant/fetus to hell. Why is that? Are they somehow qualified where an adult isn't? Again, I ask you to show me from Scripture where any human being, aside from the Lord Christ, isn't born with: 1) an inherited corruption of nature (dead in sins), and 2) the imputed guilt of Adam's transgression, either of which is sufficient in itself to condemn one to eternal punishment?

This is something most every Arminian, Liberal, cultist, etc., claims; i.e., that until an overt sin is committed, the person is innocent and thus should that person die, they are saved. This is especially said of infants and the unborn. But the Scripture teaches that men are condemned to hell for two reasons: 1) because of who they are by nature, and 2) because of sins committed due to that nature. I don't see where infants or the unborn are exempt? Can you show me where this is mentioned in the Bible? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

You also said in a previous post, that infants can't/don't have faith. Oh really? How do you know this? Since repentance and faith are both fruits of regeneration, and regeneration is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit as He wills which He works in all of God's elect, then why are the unborn and/or infants incapable of being regenerated, faith created and somehow expressed, perhaps by the reaching out of the soul. This would be no different than a cognizant adult, except that an adult has the physical ability to express what the soul does spiritually; e.g., make a vocal profession of faith.

So, I again affirm that I agree with the WCF statement on the salvation of "elect infants". They are certainly salvable, for is there anything too hard for God? That even one person is saved is incomprehensible when one realizes just how sinful a human being is from conception. And if only one person was ever saved, it would be by an infinite expression of mercy and grace.

In His Grace,

Well, all I will say is that I do NOT agree with you, or with the WCF in this matter. I have never said that anyone deserves salvation, or that infants are somehow MORE deserving of heaven. Somehow you can assert that an elect infant goes to heaven. Somehow, elect infants are saved by grace, through faith etc. How can you say without a doubt that God does not do this with every baby? So how do you know that any baby is in heaven?

The issue is NOT whether an infant is more deserving of salvation. I have never said that. But I don't know how you can say that only an elect infant as opposed to non elect infants go to heaven. How do you even know this?? You said yourself that there is no proof of any of this.

Another brought up John the baptist as proof of faith in the womb.. well that's great <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I believe it.. but did Mary walk through town, and "elect" children in the womb do the same? Did pregnant women start bending over in the street as Mary walked by because their babies were "leaping?" The bible does not say that.

I am not going to argue about this.. this is where I stand on the matter. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Michele

I know this because it is one of the most perspicuous doctrines of Scripture and of the Reformed Faith; also known as "Unconditional Election". Only those who have been chosen by God to share in the salvation wrought by Christ are saved. There are only two groups of people in the world; those who are elected to salvation and those who have been predestined to eternal punishment. A remnant makes up the former and the vast majority of the race of mankind the other.

Since you deny that unborn infants and/or babies are not any more "deserving" than any other individual, to which I unreservedly agree, then God is certainly under no obligation to save any of them. They are deserving of eternal punishment only as is all of mankind. Since the Scriptures do speak of a few individuals who were regenerated in the womb, albeit they are the rare exception, it does show that unborn infants can be saved should they die before birth or as infants.

Only the elect receive salvation. It is impossible that a non-elect can be saved. For to be "non-elect" is synonymous with to be "reprobate", i.e., predestined to eternal punishment.

You are certainly free to believe what you want on this subject. But unfortunately, you don't have a biblical leg to stand on in its defense. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sorry.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

In order; Because everybody elected to salvation is saved. Since we know not every human is saved, we can know that some people, infants included, are not of the elect. We don't know if any babies specifically are in heaven, just that scripture supports the idea of babies being elect.


Would they have to for it to be true for John? No.


God bless,

william

Dear Michele,

Some time back this subject came up in another thread and I used Mark 10 to show Pilgrim (and others) the very strong Biblical indication that all of those who die in infancy are in all likelyhood 'elect'.

They were of course, thoroughly convinced and completely won over by my sound argument,<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Soapbox.gif" alt="" /> but they have apparently backslidden back to their old position.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

Stucco

The point of that example was to show that even in the womb, a child can be regenerated and have faith. It is not to say that every woman Mary walked by who was pregnant with an elect child had leaping babies.

I just thought of something:

If all infants who die go to heaven, then let's go kill all the infants.

I found Pilgrim's answers to you in that thread to be the most logical ones. The issue relates somewhat to the whole "man on the island" scenario. If those who never hear the Gospel always go to Heaven, then let's destry all our Bible, all our gospel tracts, etc. and leave everybody in ignorance.

Not that it would change God's mind because He has elected those He whom has elected, according to His good pleasure and not our own desires.

How are the elect infants who die justified and sanctified? I would say in the same way we are- justified by faith and sanctified as God conforms us to be like Christ.

Michele,
My Mother lost four babies by miscarriage and she is an unbeliever. I do sympathize with Spurgeon's and your view on this. I also know that God hates abortion and the child sacrifices done in the OT days. God hasn't chosen to reveal these things to us for some reason. Whatever He chooses to do, I have every confidence that the Judge of the World will do right.

Since we don't know, who are we to say that He doesn't save all infants? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> Personally, I can't, with a clear conscience, say that there are infants in hell. But I don't say that it isn't possible. But who are we to make God less merciful, or even seem that way? What if, to show how merciful He really is, He did so by taking those people in infancy to save them some kind of physical suffering here on earth or something?

Just thinking out loud...

Did Billy Graham really say this??? I'm curious if you have a source you can point us to about this? Wow, if this is true, that really changes my perspective of Billy Graham.

Janean,

I don't have one of the several sources handy where Billy Graham has said this. But it is well-known that this is his position. I'm sure there are people here who could supply you with a link to an online source, and/or a book, interview, article where he has affirmed this.

And again, the question must be asked, "WHY? Why is it you cannot or will not believe that there are infants in hell?" What is there about an infant which you "feel" qualifies it for heaven? Is there some "special dispensation" for infants which overrides Original Sin? Or, perhaps you don't accept the doctrine of Original Sin and hold that all humans are conceived and born into this world with a "tabula rasa" (blank slate) as to morals, i.e., they are innocent until they commit some overt sin? Would God be less merciful if He only saved one single individual from the entire race, and that a 90 year old man? Why is it more merciful to save an infant compared to an adult?

Inquiring minds wanna know!

Very good points. It seems one has to be consistent. If we're going to say all the babies are saved (this too has been my view actually), then what about the adult people who have never heard the gospel?? Michelle, what do you specifically say about these people?? And then too, it's not only infants, but what about the profoundly mentally retarded people out there that have been in this state since birth and then they grow up with adult bodies?? They are in the same exact spot as the "innocent" baby that can never have an opportunity for repenting because they don't even know they are alive.

I think another point is that we are looking at ourselves here in just the physical dimension. Yes it is very difficult for me to think a baby can go to hell - because as a mom I have loved (and still love - I have a 18 month old) my babies so much, they are just so cute, etc. But our babies (just like us) have just a physical shell on us here. And we have to kind of forget that part. There is our spirit and that's the part that lives forever.

This is a good thread and is making me think more. I guess I might have to throw out my belief about the baby thing because this has been my belief (like Michelle) that I thought all babies are covered under Christ's blood because they will never get a chance to hear and decide. But that just doesn't make sense because then if one is going to say that, then that means all the adults out there who never heard the gospel also are covered under the blood too.
That certainly doesn't make sense from what I know of Scripture (and I'm sure there are Christians out there who believe this).

My personal thought is that the babies go to heaven thing is something that sounds "nice" and that we hear preached. In fact I heard Tony Evans say this very thing a while ago. (actually I wonder about some of his theology, I'm not a Tony Evans "fan" - he just happens to be on WMBI that I listen to).