The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Are those who die young always part of the elect?

It isn;t just Spurgeon who has believed in this idea. For some reason the idea has taken up residence at Southern Seminary in the minds of teachers like Dr. Mohler and Dr. Ron Nash. Dr. Nash vehemently argues that God is not obligated to save the "man on the island," and yet he has written a whole book on why all infants who die young are elect.

I don't think there is anything that qualifies an infant for heaven. I don't think anything overrides original sin. And I buy original sin. All of us are born sinful. But we are also all saved by grace. Every Christian is saved by the grace of God. I just tend to lean toward that those infants who die in infancy or in the womb are elect. It's grace that saves them. Just like us.


GOd would be no less merciful if He only saved one person.

I don't really think it is more merciful to save an infant than an adult. I just think it shows God's grace in a special way. Maybe I am just giving in to being sentimental. I don't know. I just know that I can see both arguements, and I know that neither side really has the answer cuz God's not made it clear in Scripture. So all any of us are doing is speculating to the best of our knowledge of the Bible. Either way, we are trusting that God has the right answer (because He does). The verse was posted earlier that says that God's thoughts and ways are not our's. I trust that God will do His will in the deaths of those babies. If He wills all infants to hell, than praise His Name. If He wills only some infants to heaven, praise His Name. If He wills all infants to heaven, praise His Name. I choose to believe that all who die in infancy or the womb are elect, and that only by the grace of God.

Is it worse to kill the unborn and infants knowing that they will most certainly be covered by the blood of Christ, or is it worse to allow them to mature to whatever point it is that they become responsible for their sins and risk the eternal damnation of hell?

If you really take it to heart that all who die before birth or in infancy are saved, it would be far more merciful to send them to eternal bliss with God by killing them than to allow them to fall under the condemnation of the law.

There is no biblical warrant for us to expect all unborn or infants dying to be saved. On the contrary, we know that all are born under the condemnation of the law because they are sinful by nature, even before they do anything.

If you believe it shows God's grace "in a special way", then of necessity you are confessing that the salvation of an unborn infant is more merciful than the salvation of a person who is born into this world. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "special"! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> I can agree that you are basing your belief on sheer sentimentality and a clear prejudice and not on Scriptural truth. The Bible IS NOT silent on the matter at all as you suppose. Malachi 1:3-5 is clear enough (cf. Rom 9:11-13) that salvation is based upon an unconditional election and that this election AND reprobation is before conception; in eternity. The history of Israel in both Old and New Testaments reveals that the vast majority of Jews perished in unbelief and that entire generations were subject to God's reprobation and temporal judgment, as can be seen from God's rejection of Esau (Edomites). You have to either hold that there were no unborn infants among the reprobate women who perished and who will ever live, or that infants are given some "special dispensation" which transcends God's decree of reprobation and which nullifies Original Sin. I suppose there may be some other reason dreamed up, but they all must fall within the scope of "reason" and not from biblical evidence.

I do agree, however, that the Judge of all the earth will do right. (Gen 18:25) Not one will be cast into hell who is not deserving of condemnation, which would mean every individual who has ever been conceived.

In His Grace,

Hi,

I would like to know why you try to make the logical conclusion that we can know that some children are not elect since not every person is saved. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I don't think the conclusion follows from your premises. I found this interesting article that would seem to cast doubt on your conclusion (see page 148, it's not 148 pages long).

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/boettner/infants_boettner.html

I do believe that all elect infants and only elect infants go to heaven based on Christ's substitutionary death for the elect. Although I tend to believe that not all infants are elect, I have not decided it conclusively in my mind (and may never come to a absolute conclusion). I think the above article makes some interesting observations on this issue. It seems that even in reformed circles the issue is not as cut and dried as it seems. As Boettner states, the WCF remains silent on who the "elect infants" are.

John

Hi,

Even though I tend to believe that not all infants are elect, I do hold open the possibility that they are. But, the question you asked is one of the biggest problems I have when considering the possibility of all infants being elect. As we've seen in other parts of this thread, one is led to all kinds of strange ideas once you've opened this door (killing children, etc.). I mean for the sake of argument, what if it's 1 year old, or 2 years old. Why not 2 years old + 1 day? Is it different for each child? It's sort of a slippery slope.

John

I have wondered on that question too. What age is one no longer an infant. There is nothing in the bible that tells us any certain age. I am not even going to estimate any age.. though there are many cultures that have their own ideas about when a boy becomes a man, or a girl becomes a woman. Either way, God knows.

Michele

If the idea of an "age of accountability" is not in the Bible, then where does it come from?

I thought I answered your question. If I didn't I'm sorry about that. I say that they are apples and oranges because God, while He did not impose death, He surely knew it.

I have never, nor did Spurgeon ever say that an infant was not born in sin.. or conceived in sin. No one has ever said that. What is put forth, is that they are elect. In response to another post you wrote, I don't think you understood what Spurgeon was saying. He was saying that if those who believe in infant baptism, believe that it is the baptism that gets the infant saved, that they are grossly mistaken. There is no power in the sprinkles of water that regenerates or saves any. Not even an adult believer.

What I don't understand is that if you believe that there are elect infants.. that somehow they are regenerated in the womb, saved in infance before they die, based on the election of God, then how is it such a stretch that all infants could be saved?

They are apples and oranges because we can 'what if" all we want. Esau did not die in infancy. Neither did Absolom. Any infant that has or will die, has or will die. It's not like we can sit and wonder why God allowed that, or what God has in mind, or what would have happened if they lived. It's what happened and will continue to happen.

But I think what Kalled was saying, about special grace.. I don't think he meant some grace different than ours, I think he meant it the same way anyone would. The same way you mean it when you say an elect infant goes to heaven. There has to be some special way in which an elect infant is saved.. I say the same for all infants who die. I don't see how that is such a stretch.

I also don't see how it is such sentimentalism/emotionalism. Isn't God kind to the ungrateful and evil? That it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance? Doesn't He say to love our enemies? Call it sentimental or emotional.. but that is bible. That is truth.

Michele

Well, it's a scientific fact that children develop in a certain way. When they are young, they absorb everything around them, and believe everything you say to them.. whether it's true or not. It's not til later.. around 8ISH.. it's different for all children.. but that's when they begin to reason things out. Gill says:





Michele

That sounds very muslim. Why don't we all have abortions rather than give God a godly offspring? (Malachi) Why don't we all marry unbelievers so that we can make them "holy?" None of that makes any sense! Killing, being unequally yoked on purpose is sin. That is plain.

Michele

Michelle-


I guess I can't trully speak for the person who original brought this up earlier. I know the phrase sounds hard, but the "killing babies" point that was brought up is just said to make a theological point. Obviously we would never think for a second to do or accept such a real thought. And yes it sounds terrible, but I thought it was a good thought brought up for the purposes of this particular theological discussion. The point was brought up for theological thinking only. Don't know if this post helps or hurts the cause - hopefully it somehow helps <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Dear Pilgrim.. I don't know what could be 'worse' in your mind, but I will leave your secrets to you. I am so sorry to hear this news.. it really does greive me. For you and your wife. There is really nothing that anyone can say to take away or dull a pain such as you have experienced.. so I'm not going to say anything. I am assuming this was not a recent event.. but it still must be in your thoughts an awful lot. It was courageous of you to reveal such a sensitive thing.. and I sure hope this topic doesn't open any wounds.

For what it's worth, I believe your child is in heaven enjoying the Lord Jesus.. and will forever.

Michele

Hi Janean,

I should have put that quote in the quote block.. Marie said it and i was speaking to her. I should have addressed it better.. sorry about that! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Michele

I thought that was a good post, Janean. It was to bring up a theological point for people to consider. Again, as Pilgrim and others have asked, in saying God has to save all infants who die prematurely, aren't we in fact denying original and personal sin?