The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum An Economic question

In the States, we hear a lot about the socialism in Canada and Western Europe, and how negatively it will hurt the country's economy. We see the same type socialism creeping ever so much in American economic and social policies.

Now my questions - Will this socialism bring out economic harm? I do not really see the bad effects of socialism in Canada and Western Europe. Is it there, will be there in the future, or are the capitalistic naysayers just plain wrong?

Take away the free market and America will collapse. If Western's Europe's healthcare is so grand why is it everyone with money comes to the states? Healthcare in America would go down the drain. How many doctors and nurses will leap to give up triple digit incomes?

What about the automotive industry? Entertainment? America needs capitalism. Even the constitution is based around it. Americans don't want their hard earned money given away to people that don't work. Is welfare anything but a failure? Socialism in America is a joke compared to the real deal.

I believe that every able bodied person who is not working and is on welfare should be required to work for the community to receive benefits. I also believe that Christians should be doing a lot more when it comes to helping people that are not able bodied.
If this was being done, the system would be sustainable.

I believe that socialism has many benefits in the here and now, but it does so on the backs of our children's future. I for one don't think that is good politics.

Over the last year, I have been trying to come to a position on what is the best form of medical system.
In that investigation I have talked to physicians in both Canada and the U.S.A.
Recently I talked to my podiatrist (foot doctor) about what he thought of the medical system in Canada.
What he told me surprised me, because he told me that he is an American and the reason he is in Canada is because only those in U.S who can afford the best insurance get good medical care.
He used his mother as an example of this, saying that although she thought she had good insurance, she is still paying for a procedure that she had done years ago.
I asked him if he thought our socialized medicine was sustainable and he said that it could be if the federal government would fund it properly.
Of course there are two sides to this issue, for instance in Canada there are long waiting lists for some medical procedures. Thus many are calling for a two tear health care system. Meaning that if you are willing to pay for it, you can get a procedure done a lot faster.

I also talked to a few doctors via the internet from the U.S who said that there are both pro and con about the two (Canadian & U.S.A) systems. They were not very complimentary about either system.

My thoughts on the issue are that although I like some of the benefit of socialized medicine. In the long run I don't think it is sustainable.
However, if what I hear about the U.S system is true, then I don't think it is much better.
I, not being all that knowledgeable of these matters am left undecided until I get more information.
Sometimes I wonder if the best system of medicine lies somewhere else.
It is all enough to make my head spin.<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/spin.gif" alt="" />

Tom

Ronald Nash (a Reformed Baptist) has some excellent books on this topic:
Poverty and Wealth: The Christian Debate over Capitalism Social Justice and the Christian Church
A Biblical Economics Manifesto (w/ Dr. James Gills)

Ron is not half bad at philosophy either. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

John C,

When you take the rewards of their labors away from the productive citizens and give it to the non-productive citiziens you take away the enthusiam for productivity. The entitlement programs in the USA are the main reason we have a national debt.

Free markets, free trade, competitiveness, productivity, and ingenuity, are essential for the American economic engine to keep moving forward. Along with the entitlement programs the dishonesty, immorality, and lack of integrity have hurt America's chance to regain fiscal responsibility. It will take a moral revolution to turn this around again.

Let's face it America became great because it once was a nation built on freedom from the tyranny of Government intrusion.


Wes

Yes, like taxing success. It also reduces the need for people to care for themselves. Remember, your enemy can be a fake guardian. Nothing makes a person really want to effect a personal change like hunger and poverty. Socialism seeks to create a closer equality between the worthless and the worthwhile.

Concerning healthcare.......I think all children should have access to healthcare, but adults need to be responsible for themselves. I am not desiring to fund abortions, sex changes, etc., for the same masses that bring nothing themselves. I find no warrant for socialism in scripture, although I do find responsible capitalism throughout the OT.


God bless,

william

Tom,

I am curious if your doctor is a hard core liberal with a particular socialized worldview? The reason why I ask is a recent article in the Wall Street Journal reports doctors saying the opposite than what your doctor is saying. Moreover, patients in Canada have an extremely long wait for the simplist of procedures. An acquaintance of mine has a sister in Cananda that took her three to four months for her to see a specialist for her back problem. She eventually had to spring the money to come here because the pain was so severe and she just could not wait long enough.

Government in health care is a bad, bad thing. We do not want hospitals and doctors offices turning into a visit to the local DMV where there is this shuffling from line to line for hours on end. That is exactly what would happen if we took that doctors advice and had the government fund the medical system properly. I contend that prices would actually come down if the government would relinguish the control they have now on medical care and cost. It would go down even more if we executed all the medical malpractice lawyer frauds who chase ambalances.

The Wall Street article can be found here:

http://www.dennisprager.com/citedbyDennis.html

Scroll down the list of articles cited to 5-19-04. The article is entitled "Dangers of Canadian Health Care." It is in a PDF format, so hopefully you can open it. I would be curious to know how accurate the author is.

Fred

Tom, I liked your response to the question very much. Propadeutic also mentioned some resources that may be valuable, although I am not familiar with them.

The other responses are locked into the dualism of "modernism". In that thinking one must be either liberal or conservative.

What we need is a completely Christian approach to the subject. I'm not a scholar or a Christian economist, so I can't answer the question. I do know that we need to focus on how the Word of God would have us respond.

All of our life is redeemed by Jesus. There is no secular neutrality in the public sphere of politics or economics. We need to seperate our thinking from the run-of-the-mill attitudes of current thought. We are made new in Christ.

One of my favorite quotes comes from the Dutch thinker of about 100 years ago named Abraham Kuyper. He said: "There is not a square inch in the whole
domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is Sovereign over all, does not cry: 'Mine!"

One last thought. About a month ago I was reading a part of Calvin's Institutes. In a section about charity he said: "Profits should be distributed according to the law of Love". I like that very much. It is not communisim or socalism. Nor is it a standard view of liberal or conservative. It seems to me that that statement is responsible to the Word of God.

"Profits should be distributed according to the law of Love".

This may be true, but the sluggard and sloth are condemned. Charity given by the law of love is much different than the free lunch welfare is. TANSTAAFL. We are commanded to work well, to be good stewards of our funds, not to grumble or complain demanding princely treatment.

My wife is friends with a man who would rather go to prison than work at McDonald's to pay off a fine. Is it loving to give such a person welfare? Love is charitable and good, but sometimes it requires a tougher action. Many on welfare are legitimate and hard working people. The problem is that many more are not. Most people refuse to flip burgers or walk behind an elephant with a bucket and shovel. Should I collect welfare if the shovel & bucket job is availible and adequate? Should I recieve unemployment if I am not actively seeking work?

The extreme left and/or secular view of socialism is far from how we should look at it as Christians.

Tom, as you know I live here in Canada too, although a "transplant" and one who will never seek citizenship here for many reasons. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My take on this "Socialism" thing is that it is anti-biblical. Why? Because, like organized labour unions, its philosophy begins with the presupposition that all men deserve to be economically and socially equal. The most hated word in Socialism is "discrimination". Yet, in Scripture we find that discrimination is something which God Himself has decreed and applied in every facet of life. Some are given sustenance; others not. Some are given health; others disease and infirmity. Some are given grace unto salvation; the majority not. Likewise, we as followers of the Living God and of Christ Jesus or Lord are required to discriminate in every facet of our lives. Discrimination is wisdom and the application of sound judgment and discernment concerning material goods, which are from God's gracious providence, of time and talent. . . and even in the matter of proclaiming the Gospel to the world. For example, we are admonished not to "cast your pearls before swine, nor give that which is holy to dogs". If we enter into a city or house and the Gospel is not well received, we are to shake the dust off our shoes and move on.

Another basic principle which is antithetical to Socialism is that while we live in the world, we are not to be part of the world. An excellent illustration of how Socialism, as currently practiced (read: forced upon Canadians)in Canada, is the "equality of sexual preference", where homosexuality is to be accepted as an 'amoral' issue and thus it is forbidden by law to discriminate in any way against anyone who is not heterosexual or who practices deviant sexual behaviour of any kind.

I see that Kuyper and Dooyeweerd have been mentioned in some of the replies here and in other places. While Kuyper had some things right, e.g., that as Christians we should view all things through the eyes of Scripture, I think he went too far. Dooyeweerd went to an extreme in his philosophy, expanding upon Kuyper's ideas, particularly in his premise re: "Sphere Sovereignty". (For a summary of his "Sphere Sovereignty" see here: R. Knudsen on "Sphere Sovereignty".) When I read in Scripture about the Body of Christ, I do not see a clear bifurcation of its members, despite the various gifts given discriminately to them by the Spirit. What I see is a unity that is built upon a basic oneness in Christ and the various gifts given are inter-related and co-dependent, not mutually exclusive spheres with superior and inferior authority. The same phenomena exists, albeit on a differ scale and for a different purpose, in the world where God has bestowed "gifts" upon all men. The fact that unregenerate men misuse and/or distort these bestowals is another matter.

Okay... enough rambling! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

My dear brethren,
While I sit here in the U. K. and read your thoughts on this subject, I plead with you all under no circumstances allow yourselves to be beguilled by socialism in its many guises.Here we have been told recently how the health of most of our citizens has been improved ,yet in the last 5 years the amount of people on invalidity benefit has increased fourfold.I must point out I am all for helping those in need in christian love but the way our system works actually encourages people not to work and does away with personal responsbility .The amount of money paid to people is beyond belief and certainly more than many earn honestly.I trully believe this system to be against biblical teaching.

Yours In Christ
Duncan <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Soapbox.gif" alt="" />

Pilgrim

Your post made me think that you thought I was justifying socialism. Nothing can be further from the truth, in fact I thought by saying: "but it does so on the backs of our children's future. I for one don't think that is good politics." That it would be quite clear that I don't support it.

Also, while I don't like unions either (though I belong to one), I do not believe that employers should be able to treat their employees like dirt either.
I know of several cases that if it wasn't for the union protecting a few employees, they would have been fired.
They would not have been fired for justifiable reasons either. For almost anybody including you would have reacted the same way they did in those circumstances.

I personally know that many non-union employers are very good. In fact my wife works for a non-union company that is not only a good employer, they give better benefits than most union employers.
As bad as unions are, they came about because employees believed they were being mistreated. I am not aware of anybody where my wife works, that would like them to go union.

To me the whole idea of unions is like the tail wagging the dog.

Tom

averagefeller

I think the key words you used in your post is "responsible capitalism". When capitalism is misused by the powers that be, then society goes looking for alternatives.

Tom

PS
I must say, that this thread is helping me get a little clearer understanding of the issues. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Rest assured, as far as I am concerned, you are preaching to the "choir". I am adamantly opposed to any form of political socialism and/or labour unions. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My concerted opinion is that there is simply no biblical warrant, under ANY circumstances, in opposition to Tom's pragmatic exceptions, for socialism and/or labour unions.

As an old man once shouted, "You preach it brother; I stutter!" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,