The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Cessation

I am quoting Kalled2Preach from this url....... https://www.the-highway.com/forum/showthr...amp;o=&vc=1


You already know where I stand, but maybe you could expound on where you stand exactly? What gifts are still being used today?


I find this an odd approach to scriptural interpretation. Do you still offer sacrifice at the temple? Worship on Saturday? How about, as a baptist student, still uphold a familial type covenant? How about another issue.......have you witnessed a verifiable occurrence of tongues, as defined by scripture?



No, just how we interpret it, which is the basic dilemma for the entire church. You pick and choose already. We all do because no Christian upholds the entirety of the OT law.

The basic problem to this claim is that canon is closed, or I would like a list of what is to be included from the last 1800 years that aren't currently in the Bible. The answer is, NOTHING. Every Christian believes canon is closed. This means canonical revelation has ceased. See the problem now? To be a Christian, you must uphold that some things ceased.

Now, if you know of a local place where tongues occurs, let me know. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" /> Hope school goes well this year.


God bless,

william

Response to first question:
I just don't think it is right to put God in a box and say "Oh God can't move in this way again" aside from the box that God has allowed Himself to be in as defined by Scripture. If we believe the Bible, than we must affirm with Psalm 115:3 that He is in heaven and does whatever He pleases. I admit that it doesn't seem the gifts are being used today, but that doesn't mean God can't use them again.

I know there are PLENTY of people here and articles that can tear me apart, but I am not going to debate it and be ripped apart cuz 1) I don't know and 2) I don't think that believing that God can still use tongues today if He would so choose is detremental to my salvation.

Response to second question:
Where does Scripture indicate that tongues have ceased?

Response to third part:
I believe that some things have ceased. But I also am humble enough to admit that I don't know all the answers. Nor does anyone else on this site, dead or alive. Not the WCF, not Jonathan Edwards, not 20 year old me, Jeremy Zerby.

I am not angry, I just think it is foolish for anyone, including MacArthur, to pretend they know it all when it comes to issues such as spiritual gifts cuz none of us truly do. MacArthur did a good job in his book, but even he is a human and may be wrong. Same with all the awesome men who's articles and sermons and books are posted on this site.

Just because someone may believe something different than someone else doesn't automatically damn a person. Especially on an unnecesary thing like spiritual gifts. I might be wrong, and if I am, I'll change what I believe. But I also might be right. Only God knows. And I am going to trust Him to reveal the answers to me from His word. That is what men of old did, and I respect what they say. But them being human, I am allowed to come to different conclusions than them, just as I am allowed to differ from anyone on this site on issues that don't effect salvation.

1 Corinthians 13:8. They served the purpose as a sign to the unbelieving Jews (1 Cor. 14:20-25) and came to cessation as a gift for the use of the Church at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Tongues would be meaningless to any other group of folks except Jews. They were meant for a specific sign - to show that the new covenant has been established by the Messiah - and are no longer a necessity for evangelism or worship.

Fred

Could you give a scriptural quote that these things, once passing away, would be used again? If not, you fail your own burden of proof. And since there are no scriptures saying such, your claim could never be validated as true. Theology is the study of God. God has revealed many things about Himself and it is our responsibility to attempt to understand His revelation.

I spent 16 years in this junk. My experiences uphold my convictions that tongues, as defined by scripture, are not being used today. The gibberish being put forth as tongues has no examples in scripture; no examples in the prior 1900 years of church history; and is admittedly part of a dispensational hermeneutic which we all know is false. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" />

Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. (NASB)

Are you using whatever in the absolute sense?


You can't "tear apart" the truth. So, believing that God could add to scripture, if He so chooses would be OK also? That would deny my understanding of Sola Scriptura. Also, most people here prefer discussion over tearing others apart. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/chatter.gif" alt="" />


Easy. But before I answer, let me warn you about a SolO Scriptura stance being indefensible. Let's not forget we have 1600 years of writings, experiences, councils and continuity of the Church to look to as well. If these gifts did not cease there should be plenty of accounts throughout history. One of my biggest issues with the charismatics is that there are none in Church history prior to around 1900. Shouldn't this be a warning sign enough? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/flee.gif" alt="" /> If not, the hermeneutics should.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

(Robertson's Word Pictures)
1Co 13:8 -
Love never faileth (h agaph oudepote piptei). New turn for the perpetuity of love. Piptei correct text, not ekpiptei, as in Luk_16:17. Love survives everything.
They shall be done away (katarghqhsontai). First future passive of katargew. Rare in old Greek, to make idle (argov), inoperative. All these special spiritual gifts will pass. It is amazing how little of human work lasts.
They shall cease (pausontai). Future middle indicative of pauw, to make cease. They shall make themselves cease or automatically cease of themselves.

When the perfect revelation came, the Bible, we didn't need further revelation. That ceased and I must believe this to be a Christian. Scripture is fully revealed and .......Sola Scriptura, a tenet of the reformation. Likewise, once the supernatural gift of speaking in foreign languages had served it God ordained purpose they also passed. Today, we have scores of translations and even several variant ones in the same languages. Missionaries from all countries are visiting even America as a mission ground.


Me either, and I just turned 38. You got a head start on me; when you're 38 you'll have years more study. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" /> I do know a few things and even a couple of things real well. Nobody here has ever claimed absolute knowledge, but some will claim, and rightfully so, proper knowledge in many areas. To claim that nobody has ever understood any truths would be absurd.


MacArthur never made that claim; if he did, quote him. If none of us "truly" know, how do you truly know this? If nobody truly knows, how do we discern the truth? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />


While there are issues of liberty I would be careful not to apply it simply to avert a choice or a proper stand so as not to offend. I believe you hold to what is called the "weak cessationist" view. I know others who hold this view as well. The basic idea is that while the gifts have seemingly passed away for most of history God may use them at His discretion at any time. My view is that scripture said prophecy would pass away and tongues when they fulfilled their purpose and Church history bears this out as fulfilled.

Hey, I was on campus the other day and the new buildings are really nice! Enjoy your year. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/thewave.gif" alt="" />


God bless,

william

The articles and the staff are not here for the purpose of tearing people apart. However sometimes surgery does occur. Successful surgery would mean removing harmful erronious assumptions and replacing them with the Gospel Truth.

Let me ask you a question Jeremy. In your opinion why would God need to use speaking in tongues today? Are people not satisfied with the Bible alone? Doesn't the Bible provide us with all we need to know for our salvation and God's will?


Wes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

Just a slight correction on this term, "weak cessationist". Those who hold to this view, of which I am one, believe that the revelatory/ecstatic gifts ceased at the passing of the Apostles. However, the non-revelatory gifts, including God performing miracles (supernaturalism) continue. This is to be distinguished from the "gift of mircales" which men allegedly perform. I think you will find that this is the "classic" view held by the vast majority of people throughout history, until as you noted, the 19th century. On the other extreme are those who are "Full/Strong Cessationists" who believe that ALL that is supernatural ceased. Richard Gaffin, e.g., is a "Weak Cessationist". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Yechh! If that's what a strong cessationist is, then I'm not one. When I say I'm a cessationist, would most people think of the strong or weak viewpoint?

Just the fact that I'm born-again is enough proof of miracles for me <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<font size="5"><script language="JavaScript" src="includes/ubbt_blink.js"></script><span id="blink"><blink>WEAK</blink></span><script language="JavaScript">blink();</script></font>

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Yes, but when I am weak, HE is so STRONG! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />

2 Corinthians 12:9

And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

I thought that was a partial cessationist. The supernatural gifts have partially ceased. Either way, all Christians uphold that some of the supernatural gifts have ceased. For 1800 years this list included tongues. It still does for those with basic discernment.


God bless,

william

Perhaps in the circles you are familiar with, people use the term "partial" rather than "weak"? It seems apparent that they are synonymous in meaning. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Seems close enough to me. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> We'll make it fit.


God bless,

william

averagefeller quoted 1Co 13:8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
----
I have a few questions, directed to no one in particular. My questions might clearly reveal I've misunderstood one or many things ; but I hope no one thinks them insincere or an attempt to play devil's advocate.
----
I take the first verse given at face value.
I do have trouble understanding why the next 2 verses are interpreted to say that certain gifts have ceased.

The writer of these verses indicates he presently knows "in part". If we take this to mean that all scripture to that point had not been given, THEN, when scripture *was* finally completely revealed what had come before (that was only a partial revelation) by necessity should have been "done away" with. Is this, perhaps, a backhanded way of saying that our *partial knowledge* ceased and was replaced by *full knowledge*? If so, tell me who has this full knowledge among us, and *knows* it NOT "in part"?

What is the perfection to come, spoken of in vs 10(a)? Is it possible this is not a reference to the full revelation of scripture but the physical kingdom of God on earth at the end of time that *fulfills* scripture? Isn't it only then that "whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."?

If knowledge was among those things the early church was given as a gift (if not a gift, and that's what we're talking about here, why is it included in this verse?), has it passed away even though all scripture has been revealed? Are some saying tongues should be treated differently and separately here, when it clearly is given place with prophecy and knowledge in this verse?

What is the form, character and substance of the "knowledge" that the scripturist referred to here? Those who are learned in Greek may be able to help.....

Finally, regarding the last verse given: I'm a little rusty after all these years about when the canon was accepted as we have it today. Are those among us on the board who say the gifts ceased in 70 A.D. also saying those parts which were not in the canon at that time have been done away with? Clearly they are present in print today and have not been done away with. Is there a different meaning for the "done away" portion of this verse?

Thanks in advance....
Cecil

I'll try to help you, but minding that I am no Greek scholar. Let's work through some of the verses first.......

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(KJV)

The perfect in verse 10 does not necessarily mean Heaven. Albert Barnes agrees;

1Co 13:10 -
But when that which is perfect is come - Does come; or shall come. This proposition is couched in a general form. It means that when anything which is perfect is seen or enjoyed, then that which is imperfect is forgotten, laid aside, or vanishes. Thus, in the full and perfect light of day, the imperfect and feeble light of the stars vanishes.
(Albert Barne's notes on the Bible)

That which is perfect (to teleion). The perfect, the full-grown (telov, end), the mature. See on 1Co_2:6. otan elqh is second aorist subjunctive with otan, temporal clause for indefinite future time.
(Robertson's Word Pictures)

G5046
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
(Strongs)

The context doesn't necessitate that interpretation either. Church history bears out the interpretation put forth by cessationists. The perfect need not be a specific occurence but a coming of maturity, as canon did. Now we have the wholeness of prophecy necessary for our salvation.......

THE CAMBRIDGE DECLARATION
of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals
THESIS ONE: SOLA SCRIPTURA
We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation,which alone can bind the conscience. The Bible alone teaches all that is necessary for our salvation from sin and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured.
We deny that any creed, council or individual may bind a Christian's conscience, that the Holy Spirit speaks independently of or contrary to what is set forth in the Bible, or that personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation.

If prophecy continues today we do NOT have the full council of God. To uphold this view would require a denial of Sola Scriptura.


The only thing they share in common in this context is that they will all end somehow. However, different usages are present within this one verse denoting various purposes and times.......

1Co 13:8 Charity26 never3763 faileth:1601 but1161 whether1535 there be prophecies,4394 they shall fail;2673 whether1535 there be tongues,1100 they shall cease;3973 whether1535 there be knowledge,1108 it shall vanish away.2673
(KJV+)

G2673
katargeo&#772;
kat-arg-eh'-o
From G2596 and G691; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
(Strongs)

G3973
pauo&#772;
pow'-o
A primn. verb (“pause”); to stop (transitive or intransitive), that is, restrain, quit, desist, come to an end: - cease, leave, refrain.
(Strongs)

1Co 13:8 -
Love never faileth (h agaph oudepote piptei). New turn for the perpetuity of love. Piptei correct text, not ekpiptei, as in Luk_16:17. Love survives everything.
They shall be done away (katarghqhsontai). First future passive of katargew. Rare in old Greek, to make idle (argov), inoperative. All these special spiritual gifts will pass. It is amazing how little of human work lasts.
They shall cease (pausontai). Future middle indicative of pauw, to make cease. They shall make themselves cease or automatically cease of themselves.
(Robertson's Word Pictures)

When the purpose of tongues, as sign gift for unbelievers and a judgement against the Jews,

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
(KJV)

1Co 14:21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
1Co 14:22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
(NASB)

Once the gospel was preached to the nations the judgement had occured and the purpose of tongues had ceased. Again, Church history bears this out.


I believe it passed with the Apostles which was probably later than 70A.D. Hope this helps. You could try looking around here Charismatic section for further depth. Chrysostom's homily on this passage may also ne helpful; Chrysostom a cessationist .


God bless,

william

William writes: "If prophecy continues today we do NOT have the full council of God. To uphold this view would require a denial of Sola Scriptura."
---
Regardless of my apparent misunderstandings in many areas, I think this is an argument that cannot be denied.

Thanks for the time you took to look at the Greek for me in this passage.

'If you've had a blessing then you should BE a blessing!'
-peace-
Cecil