"I personally don't feel the action in Iraq qualifies under augustinian just war theory."
(Fred) What exactly then is considered a "just war" according to the raiser of this sentiment? The intelligence that everyone agreed upon as being real before the war would qualify for the situation being a "just war." The person who raises the objection is looking in hind sight now which is really irrelevant.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
"The intelligence that everyone agreed upon as being real before the war."
This was not the case. There was a small minority of Republicans from the very beginning who saw no solid reason for going into Iraq. Their viewpoint has remained the same. This is not merely hindsight on their part. The only real difference is that they will no longer be voting for Bush.
This was not the case. There was a small minority of Republicans from the very beginning who saw no solid reason for going into Iraq. Their viewpoint has remained the same. This is not merely hindsight on their part. The only real difference is that they will no longer be voting for Bush.
(Fred) There were lots of folks who stated that even though intelligence pointed to the real possibility of Sadam being a threat they would not be for invasion. They could see pictures of Sadam and Ben Laden embracing in a bear hug on Sept. 12th and it would not be enough for them in their minds. The fact of the matter is that Sadam was a major threat. He had used WMD in the past and had a documented history of providing a safe haven for terrorist organizations, include Al Qaeda. It may not have been a smoking gun in his hands, per se, but there was plenty of spent cartridges on the floor and the smell of gun powder in the air. For Bush to have ignored this threat with what, at that time, intelligence stated about Iraq would have been a dereliction of duty and gross incompetence on the part of the president.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
You stated: "There were lots of folks who stated that even though intelligence pointed to the real possibility of Sadam being a threat they would not be for invasion."
A more accurate way to say it was that there were lots of folks who stated then, and now, that intelligence never did point to the real possibility of Sadam being a threat. Again, this is not hind sight. The question, then, is were they correct, and are they still correct?
I think it comes down to the cease fire agreement that the US had with Saddam... he actively subverted most if not all of the provisions. Doesn't the breaking of a cease-fire (cessation of hostilities based upon conditions) necessarily put the US (and the UN) back at war? I think so!
Many people are just glad that the 'just war' theory used for bringing us into conflict with Iraq is not applied equally to other countries, otherwise, we would be at war today with some major allies, and their allies as well.
Because we have just cause on fifty countries does not require we invade all fifty. We may choose to deal with them in other manners and wait for further developments.
"Many people are just glad that the 'just war' theory used for bringing us into conflict with Iraq is not applied equally to other countries, otherwise, we would be at war today with some major allies, and their allies as well." (rbnd)
rbnd,
Can you provide an example? I am a little confused <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
After reading/skimming through this article I found that this writer very clearly stated many of the concerns that many people had, and continue to have. I hope you find it helpful in understanding the viewpoint of those who question the necessity of being in Iraq.
If you want a book explaining 4 Christian views on war, check out 'War: Four Christian Views', edited by Robert G. Clouse. You can read a little more about it here:
"Robert Clouse presents four different viewpoints on war: Herman Hoyt on biblical nonresistance, Myron Augsburger on Christian pacifism, Arthur Holmes on just war, and Harold O.J. Brown on preventive war."
Clearly the whole idea of a 'just war' is not the only Christian option available.
But recently I was sent something by a friend that made me think.
"Don't Close Your Blinds!"
The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our Country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.
My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He told him: "Son, stand there and tell me what you see?" "I see trees and cars and our neighbor's houses." he replied. "OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush." Our son giggled and said "OK." "Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country" my husband said. "OK Dad, I'm pretending." "Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son...what do you do?" "Dad?" "What do you do son?" "I call the police, Dad." "OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then son?" "Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine. "They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says. "But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims. "I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children." "Daddy...he kills them?" "Yes son, he does. What do you do?" "Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." our son says. "Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says. "But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself! !" "WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry. "OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?" "What Daddy?" "He walks across the street to the old lady's house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in he window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?" "Daddy..." "WHAT DO YOU DO?" Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy." My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him..."Why?" "Because Daddy...the police are supposed to help...people who need it....and they won't help...You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself. Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and...do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so I can't see what he's doing....and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening." I start to cry. My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husband's questions and he tells him...."Son" "Yes, Daddy." "Open the blinds because that man.... he's at your front door..."WHAT DO YOU DO?" My son looks at his father with anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up his tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!" I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before....it's too late." my husband whispers.
THAT scenario is why we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen is the greatest evil of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove evil men from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him.
"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS.
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