The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum requirement for salvation.....

What do you folks think about the following quote from a sermon I recently witnessed?

"You cannot be a Christian without the church."

I realize that context is everything, so I will give a little of it. The term church used here was in reference to regular participation in a local church, where one has "officially" become a member. Obviously, someone who is not counted by Christ as a member of His Church isn't a Christian, but that was not the context. This quote was in a sermon both demanding adherence to the Sabbath day and the obedience to Elders/Preachers. I hope the context helps. I am interested to see what you might think of it. I have already reacted to it, I'm just interested in what some of my brethren think.... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> To God be the Glory ....JEB

There is some merit to this, in that a Christian will desire to observe the Sabbath Day, and he/she will certainly submit to the authority of the Elders, as it is God's design for the Church......

with these qualifications:

Sabbath Day observance: Although to demand that one adhere to a specific set of rules and regulations which an individual congregation has drawn up is disputable. And, to not observe the Sabbath completely or to not follow a set of man-made rules and regulations in regard to the Sabbath which are not found in Scripture does not of necessity mean that a person cannot be saved (be a Christian).

Submission to the authority of the Elders: Basically, this is a true statement but since the Elders are not infallible and do err, perhaps more than most would care to admit, an individual believer does have the right and responsibility to reject the counsel and/or advice of the Elders when it is contrary to Scripture.

You might want to read: WCF XX Section II

In His Grace,

Very Roman Catholic. The Protestants use this to get people to come to church, and pay their $$$.

Hi Pilgrim <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
the concept that was being delivered was that of someone needing the church (local) to BE a christian. Accompanied by an attitude of "not questioning your elders." Moses was given as the example, as to say that our elders are on footing with the authority of Moses, or perhaps the Apostles. As another person posted, this is awful Roman Catholic in it's flavor and possible use. To express the idea that a person need the "ok" and "membership" of the local church to "be a christian" causes me worry. ~jeb~

from:
http://www.modernreformation.org/mr98/julaug/mr9804sixth.html
a very good article, you ought to read it long before you look at my scribblings.

from: http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/visible1.htm

two excellent essays on the topic
quoted from an essay i wrote at:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rmwilliamsjr/56767.html
on my problems on joining the church.

JEB <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for clarifying the context even further. I do think my previous comments/qualifications remain relevant, even so. The original statement is, IMHO, reversed and therefore illegitimate. When one becomes a Christian, he/she is made a member of the Church by virtue of he/she being brought into union with the Head of the Church, the Lord Christ. It is to His authority that the true believer is to submit and to obey all that He has commanded. Thus in the visible church, where there are those who Christ has appointed for service, pastor/teacher/elder and deacon, there is of necessity a delegated authority defined by Scripture to which the believer is to also submit..... "as unto the Lord". What this means is that as long as those who have been ordained to those offices fulfill their responsibilities according to the biblical mandates, then the Christian must submit to them. If, however, they require, speak or act contrary to biblical teaching, over-extend their authority, etc., then the Christian is not under any obligation to submit to them.

But we should not be too hasty in rejecting such statements as: "There is no salvation outside the church", and thus throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water. For this statement is true in the sense that the Church is that which God has created as Christ's bride; intimate union with Christ. Secondly, it is God's appointed vehicle to be the "pillar and ground of the truth" (1Tim 3:15) and from which the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16) is both proclaimed and taught to others. (Eph 4:10-13) In other words, the message of salvation does not exist apart from the Church and it is the Church to which the sinner is joined when they believe. (Heb 12:22, 23)

It appears, at least to me, that today there is far too much rank "individualism" and far too little understanding and appreciation of what the Church actually is and how it is to function. It's one thing to reject the totalitarianism of the RCC and like organizations. But it is no less an error to reject the organizational structure and function of the Church and in doing so relegate it to nothing more than a private club where you can do as you please, etc. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" />

R.B. Kuiper's excellent book, The Glorious Body of Christ is definitely worth reading on this subject. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,