The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Assurance of Salvation

Proof and assurance are not synonyms.



If a believer lacks certainty of salvation, where does he go to obtain it?

This will be my last response! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Read these two articles:

The Assurance of Salvation by William R. Crews

Faith and Assurance by J.C. Ryle

In His Grace,

I have already read these articles. J.C. Ryle gives the scriptural answer.

First of all, nice cat...

I agree entirely with your comments on Sandemanism, for it is but the same faith the devils have.

Inward impressions... Well, I would only trust any such impression of God's favour upon me if it were first based on some objective truth of Scripture. Having owned a false assurance and a false sense of god's favour in the past, and having had contradictory inward impressions - or "subjective impressions" - over the years, I am inclined to trust first and foremost objective statements of Scripture and build my assurance and guidance upon that, rather than any impressions.

Maybe the difficulty here is the precise definitions of terms like inward impressions... All I know is that if we love God selflessly, the Word of God promises that this is an evidence of a work of grace, and so we can know and gain a very definite and realistic impression, nay certainty, that God is with us and loves us dearly.

I suppose I am very wary about impressions because of the leadings / claimed revelations that some of the Covenanters and people like Bunyan received in the past. For example, Bunyan in his "Grace Abounding" spoke of intuitive revelation, i.e., his affliction was to last for many days.

In closing, I am not opposed to objective impressions (e.g. being assured that God will accept me for Christ's sake when I boldly cry Abba Father), but I'm deeply suspicious of subjective ones built around an intuitive feeling / hunch that God is with me.

And let us also remember what Francis Schaeffer said:

Again, although I have failed to get this across to speratus for whatever reason, I shall say it again. Assurance of salvation is apprehended by several elements:

1. The fiduciary embracing of the propositional truths concerning the promises of God concerning salvation and the Lord Christ's finished work on the cross.
2. The witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirit that we are children of God. (Rom 8:16)
3. The manifestation of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, aka: good works, which infallibly follow justification and to which "God afore prepared that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10; cf. Eph 1:4; Rom 8:29)

Thus, assurance is apprehended by "3" sources and not just any of the one. And let me add this too..... any or all of the above can be counterfeited by either one's self and/or by the Devil and his minions. Thus, I personally, along with many others hold that one may come to a "full assurance" in this life, but it is veritably impossible that one can come to an "infallible assurance". Further, assurance varies throughout one's life because of sin or due to God withdrawing Himself for a time. King David wrote of his own lamentations in this regard in several places. Yet in all of his darker moments he maintained an attitude of "I believe; help mine unbelief", i.e., it was the object truth of God's hesed covenant faithfulness, His promises that sustained him.

In His Grace,

Hmmm, the precise manner in which the Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit is what I've been trying to ascertain in this discussion... For me, parts (a) and (c) constitute part (b), so long as (c) arises from agape love.

Anyway, you have raised another interesting issue. Do you believe that God enables any man to infallibly know anything? We don't dispute that God could do so if He so chose; but does He actually do so in relation to ANY subject in this life? And equally to the point, can the devil deceive us so that we believe we have infallible knowledge of any given fact? (The issue is not about the necessity for infalliuble certainty of any given fact, for we can know things to be true without receiving an infallible persuasion that they are so; rather, I am trying to tell if infallible certainty is something God imparts to man on any given issue, or are such persuasions of infallible certainty more likely to come from the pit?)

Part of the problem is that different denominations define words in different ways. When I reread the Reform articles replacing "assurance" with "proof" whenever good works/fruits were mentioned, the articles suddenly appeared orthodox. But it is important to maintain the distinction between proof and assurance.

When proof becomes assurance, pietism results. When assurance becomes proof, antinomialism is the result.

I believe that the "witnessing of the Spirit to our Spirit" is a combination of 1) emotive impressions and 2) the fruit of the Spirit working in that individual's life.

To suggest that "(c) arises from agape love", only begs the question, doesn't it? How is one to discern whether that "love" perceived is 1) genuine and/or 2) "agape" in nature? I think this simply throws us back to the original question, re: assurance.

IF you mean by "infallible" a perfect knowledge, then I would have to say, "No!". IF, on the other hand, you mean unwavering certainty; confidence that what is known is true, then my answer would be, "Yes!". Only God possesses infallible knowledge since all that God "knows" flows from His immutable and eternal will; He knows because He has ordained it. But as for us, our certainty of knowledge, much like this matter of assurance is dependent upon several factors. Take for example how the Apostle John links both assurance and knowledge together here:

1 John 2:3-5 (ASV) "And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him:"

1 John 3:14 (ASV) "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not abideth in death."

And he also declares that assurance is based upon the propositional truths of God as He has revealed them in His Word:

1 John 3:19-21 (ASV) "Hereby shall we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our heart before him: because if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, we have boldness toward God;"

1 John 5:18-19 (ASV) "We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not. We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one."

And finally, he says that our assurance and knowledge is found not only in propositional truth, but also through the ministry of the Holy Spirit within:

1 John 5:20 (ASV) "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Upon those 3 elements, both assurance and the certainty that the knowledge we have is true rests.

In His Grace,

Although faith alone justifies, faith as the virtue you describe provides no assurance of salvation. Neither does agape love. The devil counterfeits both.

What Satan can not counterfeit is the promise of the gospel. We know our sins are forgiven, not on account of a virtuous faith or agape love, but because God has promised the forgiveness of sins to them that believe.

So you can academically believe in God, yet you don't really know you really do because the devil can emulate it. And all that wonderful affection and delight in God's glory, that too can be simulated by the devil? Odd, we can infallibly discern sin and hatred in our hearts, but we can't discern virtue to the same level of certainty??? If we follow this through, we can't even know if our understanding is genuinely of God or of the devil...

Your second paragraph, speratus, does not resolve anything. If we cannot KNOW we believe, then how can we appropriate to ourselves with certainty any promise of forgiveness?

I have read the Puritans, Covenanters and Reformers on this subject, and the more I read, the more muddled the issue becomes. Joel Beeke's "Quest For Full Assurance" deals with many of the multifarious views Calvinists have had on this issue. It seems to me that there is great confusion in terminologies, even among those who tried to treat the subject in a very methodical way. Pedantic semantics don't help; appeals to mystic impressions or "whispers of faith" help even less. People like Donald Cargill claiming to have heard voices assuring them of their salvation adds to the confusion.

I stand by the simple premise that if a person knows he loves God and desires His glory, even if only a little, then that person may be assured that he has agape love and has therefore repented and has an interest in Christ. If the love we see is selfless, it IS agape love, worked by the Holy Ghost.

If you do not know you believe, I recommend you hear the gospel preached that you may believe and doubt not.

This is "hogwash"!! The ONLY way that such a statement could be true is if someone presumed that their alleged faith is genuine. This is circular reasoning (illogical) at its best. It fails to answer the question, "How can I know that I belong to Christ and have received forgiveness of sins?" As flunky1 pointed out, as I have also in numerous replies in this thread, the demons believe and tremble but are enemies of God. Do you reject the verity of the book of James? Do you reject that true faith is manifested outwardly with works which are observable by men? Do you stand opposed to the inspired write of Hebrews, who wrote:

Hebrews 11:4-31 (ASV) "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had witness borne to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness in respect of his gifts: and through it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God: And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing [unto him]; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that seek after him. By faith Noah, being warned [of God] concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a [land] not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God. By faith even Sarah herself received power to conceive seed when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised: wherefore also there sprang of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the sand, which is by the sea-shore, innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own. And if indeed they had been mindful of that [country] from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better [country], that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac: yea, he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten [son]; even he to whom it was said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: accounting that God [is] able to raise up, even from the dead; from whence he did also in a figure receive him back. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even concerning things to come. By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, [leaning] upon the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when his end was nigh, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months by his parents, because they saw he was a goodly child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; choosing rather to share ill treatment with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; accounting the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt: for he looked unto the recompense of reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of the blood, that the destroyer of the firstborn should not touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were swallowed up. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they had been compassed about for seven days. By faith Rahab the harlot perished not with them that were disobedient, having received the spies with peace."

In His Grace,

Pilgrim

I am not sure if this is a legitimate thought, but I thought I would ask you anyway.
When you said the following: It brought to mind the fact that Martin Luther, had doubts about whether or not the book of James was actually canon.
Could the fact, that speratus is Lutheran have anything to do with his views on this matter?
I am not saying that speratus doesn't believe that the book of James is canon.

I can't remember why Luther had a problem with the book of James.

Tom

Because he had not yet matured to the point of understanding that James was speaking not of justification by works, but evidence of true faith (James 2:24). Luther would turn over in his grave at what speratus has written in many of his posts. Most Lutherans do not agree with what much of Luther wrote, including many on the justification by faith alone— However, Luther’s theology was flawed in many areas as was shown in previous posts, but, no matter how imperfect he had the strength and fortitude to stand for what he considered to be the truth against Rome and many others. We have to remember Luther, as all of us, was a growing Christian and theologian.