The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Justification and the Effectual Call

I thank you for your gracious answer to me I will look into it further. Also I consider it a blessing to be given an answer from someone who has studied theology for twenty, thirty maybe even a hundred years.

I'm not sure if I should laugh at that or not!!

How is that consistent with the WCF?


According to WCF, man is passive until he is quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit. Then he is enabled to embrace the grace offered. Isn't justification made effectual, not by God, but by regenerate man when he embraces the grace offered and conveyed in the effectual call?


Is there no cooperation by the new man with Holy Spirit to produce the fruit of regeneration? Are the gifts of repentance and faith completely independent of any ongoing work by the Holy Spirit through the means of grace?


But, if the Word of God is an instrumental means which occurs before regeneration, not at the same time, as regeneration, how does regenerate man apprehend the "directions" before he is enlightened? Are not the "directions" foolishness to him? Logically, shouldn't the Word be preached after regeneration rather than before?

I would like to commend all in the Lord for a tremdous thread thus far.

That said, I know Pilgrim will take me to task here, but all for the Glory of God brother. I am from the Kuyperian school of eternal Justification in a sense.

I also believe in a "preparatory grace" as an operation of the Holy Spirit. Right from Gen 1 we see this where the Spirit brooded, then God spoke. Also in the parable of the sower. The Word does not regenerate only the Holy Spirit does that. When you ask "Shouldnt the word be preached after regeneration, I do nto know what you mean by this. The Word is sown indiscriminately to the regenerate and unregenerate. The Elect and Reprobate. I also believe we are justified prior to faith. For I do nto have faith in my faith. Meeting to go to so more later God willing.

Would the Kuyperian school accept the effectual call and justification articles of the WCF? How does eternal Justification differ from election before the foundation of the world.


I was asking logically, from the Calvinist order of salvation, not with respect to the command to teach all nations.


Have you considered the possibility that we are justified, not before or after, but at the same time we believe?

I still do not understand what you mean though. We cannot conclude who is regenerate or not.



Well because we are linear in our thinking, we tend to trouble ourselves with the timing realizization of Spiritual events. I belief there is a great difference between the effectual call of the Spirit and the general call of the gospel.

Because they are in total agreement. Where do you find an inconsistency?

I find your phraseology quite confusing. Man doesn't make ANYTHING effectual; God does. And God is the One who also has determined and provided the means by which one is justified, i.e., the preaching/reading of the Word, repentance and faith. Again, God doesn't repent for anyone and nor is it God Who believes on Christ. Man has a specific part, albeit due to the Spirit's regeneration and enabling, in apprehending justification. Likewise, faith is the means or vehicle which apprends Christ. Faith has no inherent value in and of itself. It is Christ alone Who saves and not the actual faith that embraces Him. Yet, without faith exercised by the man, there is no salvation to be had.

Romans 4:3 (KJV) "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." (cf. Gal 3:26; Jam 2:23)

What do you mean by "cooperation"? IF by that you mean that man contributes something of his own which works with the working of the Holy Spirit, then absolutely not. Salvation is of the Lord. However, as I have maintained so many times in responses to you since you arrived here, man has a definite and necessary part in the apprehending of justification, i.e., repentance and faith, both of which are the fruit of the Spirit's regeneration. Those who have been regenerated will infallibly repent and believe. It cannot be otherwise for it is the natural result of that regeneration and the justification was eternal foreordained that the elect should obtain it.

I have repeated said that the Holy Spirit works with the instrumental means of the Word of God. I have never stated a logical or temporal order of that working. One cannot hear unless one is given ears to hear. But one is not given ears to hear, normally, apart from the preaching/reading of the Word. (Rom 1:16; 10:12-17)

In His Grace,

I may take you to task on the issue of "eternal justification", but not in this thread as it is actually OFF TOPIC. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (start a new thread if this is a topic you wish to debate)

In His Grace,

I find the WCF phraseology confusing. Saying regenerate man is enabled to actively embrace grace is another way of saying man is justified by his action of embracing. Or does embracing grace mean something different from being declared righteous? Or, as Helm seems to infer, made righteous by inner character change?

While God doesn't repent or believe for anyone, neither can man do anything to believe or repent. He receives faith and repentance as gifts. So faith and repentance are means that apprehend Christ but how can embracing be a means to obtain grace since it is clearly a work that men do?


Could preaching/reading and regeneration (and normally would they) occur at the same time?

http://www.sovereign-grace.com/927.htm

Here is a good article by tobias Crisp

The "receiving of faith and repentance as gifts" is part of the blessings that occur in regeneration. But these gifts MUST and WILL be expressed by the individual who most willingly and deliberately repents and believes on Christ. A sinner is not justified nor will he/she ever be saved unless these are done. Those whom the Father gave to Christ WILL come to Him in repentance and faith. One is not saved by any eternal decree, in and of itself, for the decree INCLUDES all the means and temporal actions of men. Thus, all those who are regenerated will infallibly repent and believe and endure to the end. I am convinced that you have not come to a reasonable understanding within yourself in regards to the biblical doctrines of "God's Absolute and Immutable Sovereignty" and "Man's Full Responsibility". You appear to have a serious hangup with the latter. And I would guess it is, at least in part, due to an obsession to reject anything that even hints (in your estimation) of "free-will".

Normally, yes! The only exceptions would be in the case of elect infants who die in infancy and those who are incapable of comprehending the Word. (See WCF X:III)

In His Grace,

Speratus,

You said:

It seems that you may have a "mind-block" to understanding these simple statements. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" /> "regenerate man is enabled" means only that, he is enabled, he still must perform the action to make it complete. Performing the action completes the process, but of itself does not do the justifying, just accepts it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bingo.gif" alt="" /> Hope this makes it a little clearer.

In His Hands,

Ruth

I believe the issue may be related as such.

If I were to tell someone that since I do not know if God has purposed that taking this medicine will kill me, so I refuse to take it when the Doctor said it may help me. You would think me an idiot.

The confusion lies in our response to some. I do nto believe our response completes the process because we allow God to convince us, or anything in ourself gives God permission because God will have His way with His elect.

Faith and belief are the fruits of Justification which is caused by the effectual call.

Are you SURE you meant to write that??? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> I have never heard anyone ever state that "faith and belief are <span style="background-color:yellow">fruits of justification</span>". Semi-Pelagians and Arminians hold that regeneration is the fruit of our believing. Calvinists hold that faith and repentance are fruits of regeneration. But neither group holds to anything like the above.

In His Grace,

Joe k,

I was responding to Speratus, not you, but since you did comment, I will have to dispute your statements.

I disagree with your interpretation of Justification. It does NOT produce fruits, it is a forensic declaration. It also is not caused by the effectual call! Justification is imputed when one believes.

Galatians 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

The order is:

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

In His Hands,
Ruth