Forum Search
Member Spotlight
Tom
Tom
Kelowna, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 4,893
Joined: April 2001
Forum Statistics
Forums31
Topics8,349
Posts56,545
Members992
Most Online2,383
Jan 12th, 2026
Top Posters
Pilgrim 15,026
Tom 4,893
chestnutmare 3,463
J_Edwards 2,615
John_C 1,904
Wes 1,856
RJ_ 1,583
MarieP 1,579
Robin 1,079
Top Posters(30 Days)
Pilgrim 35
Tom 4
Robin 1
Recent Posts
"He led them forth by the right way."
by Pilgrim - Fri May 22, 2026 5:35 AM
King of Kings
by Tom - Thu May 21, 2026 4:31 PM
"If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious."
by Pilgrim - Thu May 21, 2026 5:30 AM
"Marvellous lovingkindness."
by Pilgrim - Wed May 20, 2026 9:09 AM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#23284 Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 49
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 49


As you are probably aware, there is an inside debate among Calvinists on whether or not there is an age of accountability.
The names on both sides of the debate are quite impressive.
Personally I am not convinced either way, but I thought I would give a few examples that are given to prove that there is an age of accountability.
I would ask anyone who is interested, to give their reasons why they either agree or disagree with these arguments from people who believe there is an age of accountability.

I noticed one passage among a few that I thought could possibly (not sure) point to an age of accountability.
Isaiah 7:15-16 “He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.”

Here is something written by Millard Erickson
Quote
The current form of my understanding is as follows: We all were involved in Adam's sin, and thus receive both the corrupted nature that was his after the fall, and the guilt and condemnation that attach to his sin. With this matter of guilt, however, just as with the imputation of Christ's righteousness, there must be some conscious and voluntary decision on our part. Until this is the case, there is only a conditional imputation of guilt. Thus, there is no condemnation until one reaches the age of responsibility. If a child dies before becoming capable of making genuine moral decisions, the contingent imputation of Adamic sin does not become actual, and the child will experience the same type of future existence with the Lord as will those who have reached the age of moral responsibility and had their sins forgiven as a result of accepting the offer of salvation based upon Christ's atoning death. The problem of the corrupted nature of such persons is presumably dealt with in the way that the imperfectly sanctified nature of believers will be glorified. What is the nature of the voluntary decision that ends our childish innocence and constitutes a ratification of the first sin, the fall? One position on this question is that there is no final imputation of the first sin until we commit a sin of our own, thus ratifying Adam's sin. Unlike the Arminian view, this position holds that at the moment of our first sin we become guilty of both our own sin and the original sin as well. There is another position, however, one which is preferable in that it more fully preserves the parallelism between our accepting the work of Christ and that of Adam, and at the same time it more clearly points out our responsibility for the first sin. We become responsible and guilty when we accept or approve of our corrupt nature. There is a time in the life of each one of us when we become aware of our own tendency toward sin. At that point we may abhor the sinful nature that has been there all the time. We would in that case repent of it and might even, if there is an awareness of the gospel, ask God for forgiveness and cleansing. At the very least there would be a rejection of our sinful makeup. But if we acquiesce in that sinful nature, we are in effect saying that it is good. By placing our tacit approval upon the corruption, we are also approving or concurring in the action in the Garden of Eden so long ago. We become guilty of that sin without having committed any sin of our own.
Erickson, Christian Theology, second edition (Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 199 , page 656.
Also
Quote
The parallelism that Paul draws in Romans 5 between Adam and Christ in their relationship to us is impressive. He asserts that in some parallel way what each of them did has its influence on us (as Adam's sin leads to death, so Christ's act of righteousness leads to life). What is this parallel? If, as we might be inclined to think, the condemnation and guilt of Adam are imputed to us without there being on our part any sort of conscious choice of his act, the same would necessarily hold true of the imputation of Christ's righteousness and redeeming work. But does his death justify us simply by virtue of his identification with humanity through the incarnation and independently of whether we make a conscious and personal acceptance of his work? And do all humans have the grace of Christ imputed to them, just as all have Adam's sin imputed to them? The usual answer of evangelicals is no; there is abundant evidence that there are two classes of persons, the lost and the saved, and that only a decision to accept the work of Christ makes it effective in our lives. But if this is the case, then would not the imputation of guilt based upon the action of Adam, albeit Adam as including us, require some sort of volitional choice as well? If there is no "unconscious faith," can there be "unconscious sin"? And what are we to say of infants who die? Despite having participated in that first sin, they are somehow accepted and saved. Although they have made no conscious choice of Christ's work (or of Adam's sin for that matter), the spiritual effects of the curse are negated in their case. While some theologians preserve the parallelism by allowing both unconscious or unconditional imputation of Adam's guilt and Christ's righteousness, another available alternative seems preferable.
Erickson, pages 655-656

I could also quote from CH Spurgeon, but this post is too long as it is.

Tom

Tom #23285 Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 1
Permanent Resident
Offline
Permanent Resident
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 1
Since Erickson is one of the principal proponents of what is called Moderate Calvinism, can he be considered a Calvinist?


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
Tom #23286 Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:28 AM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Hmmm.......where's the scripture?


God bless,

william

#23287 Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 40
Journeyman
Offline
Journeyman
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 40
One of the best Scriptural passages for age of accountability, IMO, is when God refuses to let Israel enter the land the first time but excuses those 20 years of age and younger. It strongly suggests that He is saying that they are not accountable for the rebellion of their eelders.

But personally, I lean towards not accepting the idea.

vince_kieff #23288 Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:29 AM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Not "being held responsible for the transgressions of my elders" and not being held accountable for my OWN transgressions are two different things. The age of accountability was a requirement for baptists when they decided to exclude children from the visible church. Since a "valid profession" is necessary in baptist theology, one must be old enough to formulate this profession AFTER becoming old enough to do so. I have asked both question related to this.......where is the age of accountability in scripture, and where does scripture exclude children from the visible church?

The other issue I have is that I'm a reformed AND orthodox kinda guy. I believe in the familial covenant as well as Sola Fide. An age of accountability means some are let into heaven due to their ignorance? What sola would that be? This is simply new theology.......well, relatively speaking in context of church history.


God bless,

william

Last edited by averagefellar; Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:34 AM.
John_C #23289 Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,026
Likes: 274
Head Honcho
Offline
Head Honcho
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 15,026
Likes: 274
Quote
John_C said:
Since Erickson is one of the principal proponents of what is called Moderate Calvinism, can he be considered a Calvinist?
Hmmmmmmmm, why should he be graced with the name "Calvinist" when he at least qualifies equally to be called a "Moderate Arminian". It has always amused me that most prefer to be known as "4-Point; 3-Point; 2-Point and even 1-Point Calvinists". Rarely do you ever hear someone refer to themselves or others as, e.g., 3-Point Arminians. Why is that? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

Erickson's attempt to straddle the fence, as it were, as he does in the quotes Tom provided, ends in him unwittingly denying the very thing he says he holds to be true, i.e., Original Sin; the imputation of Adam's guilt and the inheritance of a corrupt nature. Rom 5:12 clearly says: "and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--". ALL die because ALL sinned in Adam, and thus we ALL are guilty before God. The attempts to evade this truth, that we are born with imputed guilt, are endless but at the end of the day they all fail. However, reading how men to try to circumvent this is quite entertaining, IMHO. Secondly, if/since ALL have inherited a corruption of nature, then of necessity, the expression of one's entire being is also corrupt. This has been the orthodox understanding for over two millennia. We call it the doctrine of Total Depravity. Since one's nature is spiritually dead, every thought, word and deed is naturally sinful and thus the individual is worthy of condemnation on this fact alone, never mind the fact that the guilt of Adam's sin is imputed at conception. The inheritance of a sin nature necessitates that one be born from above, aka: regenerated, by the sovereign mercy and gracious operation of the Holy Spirit. The imputation of guilt necessitates remission of sin and an imputed alien righteousness. (Eph 2:1-10; et al)

Okay.... what is it that "I" believe? There is an age of accountability, without any doubt. And that age is "0"; it starts at conception. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Tom #23290 Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Tom,

You might benefit from reading a Calvinist on this topic. Little Innocents? by Sinclair Ferguson

Proponents of the "age of accountability" will quote Scriptures that speak about a time when the children of Israel had no knowledge between good and evil. For example we read this in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 1:39

"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

This passage along with similar ones is interpreted by Arminians to demonstrate that children are not yet accountable because they have no knowledge of sin. But what the passage is really saying is that they had no knowledge of the 'sins of their fathers,' meaning they had no part in the previous rebellions, but not that they had no understanding of what was evil.

The Bible tells us that we (each and everyone of us) are born in sin and each of us and our children are accountable from conception on.

Psalms 51:5

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

Psalms 58:3

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”

It comes down to this. Those who believe in an "age of accountability" put the emphasis on man's choosing because they believe in man’s free will. This is a serious error. Salvation is of God's will, on whosoever He will, not of man's free will. So those who hold this "age of accountability," see their children in some sort of probationary state and don’t believe in God's Sovereign right to save whoever He chooses and not be in obligation to save only those who choose Him.

Romans 9:15-16

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is Not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy".

The age of accountablity is conception!


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Wes #23291 Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 49
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 49
Wes

You said:
Quote
It comes down to this. Those who believe in an "age of accountability" put the emphasis on man's choosing because they believe in man’s free will. This is a serious error. Salvation is of God's will, on whosoever He will, not of man's free will. So those who hold this "age of accountability," see their children in some sort of probationary state and don’t believe in God's Sovereign right to save whoever He chooses and not be in obligation to save only those who choose Him.

Wes, as you probably know even CH Spurgeon believed in an age of accountability. I could list quite a few big names today that also do and they don't believe man has a free will.
Just so you know, I lean towards there not being an age of accountability, but I am not dogmatic about it.

Pilgrim #23292 Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 49
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 49
Sorry, I used Erickson because I thought he was a Calvinist. I could have used Spurgeon or any other Calvinist, such a MacArthur, Piper, etc...

By the way, not all Reformed Baptists believe in an age of accountability. In fact this is even an in house debate among them.
As I said to Wes, I lean towards there not being an age of accountability, but I am not dogmatic about it. This is my way of finding out a little more about the issue.

Tom

Tom #23293 Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Quote
Tom said:

Wes

.... as you probably know even CH Spurgeon believed in an age of accountability. I could list quite a few big names today that also do and they don't believe man has a free will.

Tom, what does that prove?

Quote
Tom wrote:

Just so you know, I lean towards there not being an age of accountability, but I am not dogmatic about it.

When you use the term "I lean towards..." that doesn't sound like you're convinced yet. You can be on the fence and lean either way if you like. But what does Scripture tell us? OBTW did you read that article by Ferguson?


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Tom #23294 Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,615
Tom, even his premise is wrong:

Quote
With this matter of guilt, however, just as with the imputation of Christ's righteousness, there must be some conscious and voluntary decision on our part. Until this is the case, there is only a conditional imputation of guilt. Thus, there is no condemnation until one reaches the age of responsibility.

Where does the Bible teach conditional imputation of guilt (Rom 2:12; Rom 5:12-21; 1 Cor 15:21)--referring to the Fall, etc? Where does Erickson deal with the pollution of sin? This IS NOT Reformed Theology!!!

Did all sin in Adam? As Ferggy says,

Quote
"In Adam's fall we sinned all." By his disobedience we have all been constituted sinners (Rom. 5:19). As a result of our natural relationship with him we have come to share in his depravity from the very beginning of our existence. We are flawed from conception. None of us has a "normal" birth.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Tom #23295 Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:32 PM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
I'm dogmatic about it because it denies Sola Fide and Imputed Sin. It's an attack on reformed soteriology. Spurgeon got baptism wrong and it doesn't matter how many "folks that could be named" uphold apostacy.......it's still apostasy. Not being dogmatic will sometimes mean allowing false teachings to enter in the name of "not being dogmatic".


God bless,

william

Tom #23296 Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life
Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,856
Quote
Tom said:

Sorry, I used Erickson because I thought he was a Calvinist. I could have used Spurgeon or any other Calvinist, such a MacArthur, Piper, etc...

I'm not sure but don't each of the names you've mentioned also hold to credobaptism? Is that a coincidence or what?


Wes


When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Wes #23297 Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 49
Tom Offline OP
Needs to get a Life
OP Offline
Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893
Likes: 49
Just so you are aware, being a Credo-Baptist does not necessarily mean that one believes in an age of accountability. As I have said before, the age of accountability is an inside debate even among Reformed Baptists. My embracing credo baptism has nothing to do with the age of accountability issue. In fact most Baptist articles and books that I have read on credo-baptism and Baptist CT, don't even mention the age of accountability.
One book in particular that I am referring to is 'The Baptism of Disciples Alone' by Fred Malone.

As for Ferguson’s article, yes I read it and I am inclined to agree with it. However, I am not quite completely convinced yet. Call me 98% convinced, because I have come to realize that I have a lot to learn on this matter.

As to the issue of who should be the subjects of baptism, I would rather not get into that discussion, because it has been discussed at length on the Highway many times.

In my initial post, I mentioned Isaiah 7:15-16 “He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.”

I am not completely sure what this is saying, could you please exegete it for me, thanks.
I know that it is a prophecy about our Lord, but the words “at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good,…” have been used by some to try to prove that there is an age of accountability. I think they are stretching the passages meaning to prove their point, but need more input to know for sure.

Tom

Tom #23298 Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:55 PM
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
Yes, Tom. Not all baptists hold to this false belief. However, I think it does say something when it is generally a matter of contention between arminians and baptists. So allow me to ask a few questions and see if you can understand why I think it goes along with baptist theology.......

Either 1) only professors should be baptized, 2) only the elect should be baptized, or 3) only professors and their OIKOS should be baptized. I have totally disproved #2 repeatedly*, and of course you don't hold to #3. That means you uphold professors baptism. In order to make this belief plausible one must actually put forth a valid profession. At what age can one do so?

*We ALL believe that ALL the elect should be baptized yet know we cannot make this the litmus test for baptism due to not infallibly knowing neither the election of an individual nor the core of his heart.*

Do you agree with my last statement?


God bless,

william

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 152 guests, and 37 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bosco, Mike, Puritan Steve, NSH123, Church44
992 Registered Users
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
May
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
1,878,999 Gospel truth