Hi everyone- <br><br>Been listening to RC Sproul's tape of the month (the last 3), dealing with the state of man after death. Couple of things jumped out at me. Ist thing..'flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God', and I've always thought that to mean Heaven, but couldn't it also mean Hell? If God raises both the dead in Christ and the dead in sin at the final judgment, and those going to Heaven are given glorified bodies, then is it reasonable to assume those dead in sin will be given glorified bodies? If Hell is an eternity, and I believe that it is, wouldn't those condemned to it have to have uncorruptible bodies as well? <br><br>RC mentions somewhere in the 3 tapes the Beatific Vision, and that it has been thought by theologians that Christ, being sinless always had this Vision before Him during His incarnation, up to the point of His death on the cross and this was the unbearable punishment, not the physical pain He endured, not trying to minimize it, just not maximizing it here.<br><br>So now back to the condemned in Hell...if they are raised, then on some level they must be perfected, and if they stand before the Judgment Seat of God, there can be no more denying Him, there is no more question in their mind, they know the Truth of God. Isn't their condemnation exactly what Christ suffered on the cross, the complete knowledge of God, knowing He has turned His face forever from them, knowing there will never be another blessing, another ounce of Grace or mercy and yet desperately wanting His love and mercy?<br><br>'Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.' It isn't just heaven in mind here, is it..or is it? <br><br>Hell has just become a much more terrifying place, and if I'm being a big dufus, please set my feet on solid ground, there are few willing to talk about hell, especially preachers, I know, I've asked!<br><br>Thanks for listening,<br><br>Hannahsmom
In reply to:[color:"blue"]If God raises both the dead in Christ and the dead in sin at the final judgment, and those going to Heaven are given glorified bodies, then is it reasonable to assume those dead in sin will be given glorified bodies?
No! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img] Those who died in the Lord await their final glorification, i.e., they will not only receive their incorruptible bodies but also the final and full transformation of their souls, aka: perfection. This glorification is a gracious gift of God which flows as part of the atonement of Christ Jesus. This was the ultimate purpose of His perfect life and vicarious substitutionary death. Glorification belongs ONLY to the elect. It is the end to which God has purposed, for only that which is perfectly holy can dwell before Him.
Ephesians 1:4 (ASV) "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:"
Ephesians 5:25-27 (ASV) "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself a glorious [church], not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish".
Romans 8:29-30 (ASV) "For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Colossians 1:22 (ASV) "yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him:
In reply to:[color:"blue"]if they are raised, then on some level they must be perfected
It would appear that you are confused about what the word, raised means. Being raised from the dead is not a synonym for restored or even less still perfected. One can bury a body and then later dig it up without altering its original state due to its exhumation. The soul of man retains its natural state UNLESS it is directly changed by the Holy Spirit's regeneration. The soul's of the reprobate await the Judgment in Hell. You may rightly think of this as like a murderer who is held in prison without bail awaiting his trial, conviction and sentence after which he will be cast back into the same prison. The reprobate are not changed in their being at all. In fact, while they await the Judgment in Hell, I seriously doubt there exists that restraining power of the Holy Spirit which was active on earth. Thus if anything, these individuals will be given free expression (that which pagans are constantly crying out for) of their depravity. Then, they are brought before God, judged and sentenced to eternal damnation. They have no part of Christ, God, salvation and certainly not "glorification".
Yes, to a certain degree, those who are destined to hell will know more assuredly than ever before that God became flesh and dwelt on earth to redeem a sinful human race unto Himself. They will know that they are worthy of condemnation due to their hatred of God, Christ, goodness, holiness, etc. YET.. they will have no remorse or repentance of this hatred and rejection of God. They will be unchanged in their sinfulness. We can see the same thinking process among unbelievers even today. They all will confess that "if" there is a hell, they certainly don't want to go there. But their desire to NOT go there pales to their desire to sin. So, they want to commit the crime but not do the time. Their love of sin far exceeds any fear of punishment. Their hatred of God far exceeds any prospect of damnation.
I agree that to call the resurrection of the reprobate "glorification" is wrong. On the other hand, I think Hannahsmom might be trying to figure out whether the resurrected reprobate will be given some sort of "new" bodies fit for their eternal damnation. Along that line, I would be inclined to say, "yes." Those who are raised unto eternal destruction will receive new bodies fit for eternal destruction, whatever that requires. They will be suffering in both body and soul. Again, I would not call this glorification, because they will not be conformed to the image of Christ ... far from it.<br><br>Furthermore, I would not want to say that the damned experience exactly what Christ experienced on the cross as stated in her original post. It is reasonable to assume that they will have some kind of understanding of the hopelessness of their estate, but we have to keep in mind that they are also confirmed in their unregenerate state, and so it is quite possible that the self-deception continues just as their rebellion and hatred against God continues. I believe that part of the eternal nature of the suffering is attributable to the fact that they continue to respond sinfully against the just punishment of God against their sin. Look at the rich man in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. He continues to think that he knows better than God what ought to be done.<br><br>My $.02,<br><br>~Jason
In reply to:[color:"blue"]They will be suffering in both body and soul.
Interesting point!! I am torn betwixt the reprobate receiving a "new body fit for destruction" and not receiving a body at all.[*]New body: Because man was created both body and soul, it seems only right that ALL mankind should be rejoined to a body wherein the soul resides. Unlike angelic beings, man is bipartite.[*]No body: Reason would suggest that there is no purpose in the reprobate having a "new body", for that which is to suffer is the soul from which sin originates. Not all sin is expressed through the body, e.g., emotive sins such as hatred, lust, coveting, etc.[/LIST]If I had to choose between the two, I would lean toward #1; all men receive a new body after its own kind.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Furthermore, I would not want to say that the damned experience exactly what Christ experienced on the cross as stated in her original post.
I would also agree with this and even dogmatically. Christ's suffering was the accumulated wrath for all the sins of all the elect. He did not suffer the pangs of death for the reprobate, although as we know, the quality of His suffering was sufficient for all. Moreover, each individual will be judged and punished according to both the original depravity of nature from which all sins flow and in accord with the actual sins committed. Thus, we could say that a Hitler will suffer far more than a child who died in infancy. And so, each individual's suffering will be inline with what justice demands; no more and no less.
Lastly, the reprobate in hell will surely express their hatred and rebellion toward God, but I believe even more so. As I stated in my previous reply, this hatred of God and of all righteousness is now restrained by the work of the Holy Spirit. And, there will no longer be any "Common Grace", but rather the full release of sinfulness. The natural man while in the body is not as bad as he possibly could be. However, in hell where there will be no restraints whatsoever, depravity will be given full reign.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Thus, we could say that a Hitler will suffer far more than a child who died in infancy.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Is there any part of Scripture that would lead us to believe that the dead infant and aborted child are included in the elect? You would hope they are, but then again, if they were, then there would be a great multitude of babies in heaven. Would they still be babies or would they "know as they are known" and thus be able to thoughtfully and joyfully adore God?<br><br>Which leads me to another question: What of the "age of accountability?" And what about the mentality retarded or the insane?
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Greetings Pilgrim,<br><br>Yes, I would lean quite heavily towards both body and soul for the simple reason that we are indeed fleshly beings by design and would naturally seem to remain that way. I would also say that a number of Scripture references indicate such to be the case:<br><br>Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.<br><br>Matthew 5:29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.<br><br>Matthew 18:9 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.<br><br>These, as well as other texts that speak of "gnashing teeth" and Lazarus' thirst, would force me to interpret all of these references to the body metaphorically if it were only spiritual, which seems like too great a strain considering the points you made regarding #1 and the constitution of man. Also, when Paul refers to the reprobates as being "vessels of wrath", that term vessel has a prima facie indication of something material in my estimation.<br><br>With respect to the purpose of the body suffering as well as the soul, that is an interesting point about the origination of sin and the fact that, unlike the soul, the body itself is not ethically corrupt. However, it is also Biblically demonstrable that the affects of the soul are intricately woven with the body, and sometimes the body can affect the soul too. When Adam and Eve sinned they died spiritually and also physically (though not immediately). When people are tired, hungry, in pain, etc., it can have an affect on their spirit and their spirit can have an affect on their body. So in terms of purpose, I would estimate that the purpose is to thoroughly punish the whole man, which if it were without a body may not be whole. All I can say is praise God that I won't have to find out experimentally what the truth of the matter may be. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grovel.gif" alt="grovel" title="grovel[/img]<br><br>Sincerely in Christ,<br><br>~Jason<br><br>
Thanks everyone,<br><br>Murphy's Law runs the show here, and where I thought I'd have some time to devote to this, I was again proven wrong! <br><br>You've given me alot more to consider than I had before and I thank you.<br><br>Just one more thing though, a common thought running through most of the responses is what Christ suffered on the cross and I'm alittle confused. His blood was shed to cover our sins, but what He saved us from is the wrath that He Himself experienced for us, yes? I'm waffling a bit on the thought that those in Hell will be unrepentant or unremorseful. I completely agree that the sins of the reprobate are theirs to carry for an eternity and the saving work of Christ does nothing for them, but if there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth in Hell, what are they weeping and gnashing about? Isn't that usually a description of remorse and repentance? <br><br>I'll check back as soon as I can, and thanks again for listening.<br><br>Hannahsmom<br><br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]but if there will be great weeping and gnashing of teeth in Hell, what are they weeping and gnashing about? Isn't that usually a description of remorse and repentance?</font><hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps a real life illustration will help you to see that this "weeping and gnashing of teeth" has nothing to do with remorse and/or repentance. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<br><br>Have you ever punished any of your children for something they did that was wrong? Perhaps you confined them to their room or prevented them from going some place they were looking forward to? Did they ever [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grovel.gif" alt="grovel" title="grovel[/img], protest, stomp their feet, , etc., etc.? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] Was this protest an expression of "remorse or repentance" for the rule they broke or was it an expression of their dislike of the punishment they had to bear? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] I've had the "privilege" of visiting many men in prison and invariably they were discontent over their incarceration and expressed their feelings quite verbosely. But rarely did I ever hear one say that they were content with their being imprisoned because their punishment was their due and they were remorseful over the crime they committed.<br><br>In His Grace,
Hannahsmom,<br><br>Remember that Esau sought the blessing with tears, but there was no repentance for him to be found. Judas as well hanged himself for his deeds, but we should not believe he was contrite. I myself often find that I am more disgusted with my personal failure when I transgress God's law than I am over the fact that I have offended my neighbor or my God. This disgust I have, even if mingled with the gift of true contrition, is often times simply more sin on my part. In sum, our anguish over our sin may not be godly repentance or truly remorseful, but simply the result of more pride and arrogance. May God grant us the grace to see ourselves as we really are.<br><br>Blessings,<br><br>Ron
[color:blue]The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12 13. John 3:8 14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12
Regarding the infant being elect, what about 2 Samuel 12:23.<br>But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.<br><br>As for the age of accountability, it doesn't exist.<br><br>Steve<br>
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, etc., etc.? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img] Was this protest an expression of "remorse or repentance" for the rule they broke or was it an expression of their dislike of the punishment they had to bear? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img] I've had the "privilege" of visiting many men in prison and invariably they were discontent over their incarceration and expressed their feelings quite verbosely. But rarely did I ever hear one say that they were content with their being imprisoned because their punishment was their due and they were remorseful over the crime they committed.<br><br>In His Grace,