The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum To Associate or Not:(Split off Feminism thread)

doulos,

You stated:You seem to have struggled with the necessity of biblically-exercised church discipline based on the potential for its abuse. By similar logic, one could question the scriptural warrant for: getting married (some marriages go awry), having children (some children go awry), baptizing anyone (some baptizees go awry), having elders (some go awry). etc.. No one would argue against these based on potential abuse, because they are clearly commanded and sanctioned by scripture; rather they should all be entered into with, as you said, "prayer, conviction, evidence", and most importantly faith that the Lord knows what is best for his church. So too with church discipline.

Although our church is very small, we have needed to have a handful of full-church discipline hearings over the past 20 years. Your characterization "after justifying their actions with a prayer meeting" is woefully shallow to describe what took place. Rather, it was certain that the parties involved had first met individually, then with several others, to establish everything on the basis of credible witnesses. Of course these primal, essential steps are on-going with the other 99.9% of grievances which are happily resolved at that level, never proceeding to excommunication, and I am certain the urgency to resolve matters is made more pressing due to the possibility of full-church hearings. If needed, the elders heard all witnesses, attemped counseling, with every action documented by letters, over a period of weeks or months. Only when these measures failed would the entire church be called to a hearing, with all documentation read, and a chance for rebuttal or additional testimony by the involved parties. Given the nature of the case, if there seemed to be motion in the direction of repentance, a penultimate warning would be given, with covenant members encouraged to give private counsel before a new hearing would be convened. Only then, after all parties were able to publically answer all charges, and publically refusing to confess wrongdoing and repent of their scandalous ways, and with solemn warnings given to the church to be motivated by desire for restoration, would the church vote for excommunication. It is nowhere near as shallow a procedure as you imply.

Well it looks like a few things right.

Quite possibly I have lost faith in the ability of my church to get it right...a sad statement.

Listen folks, is it possible that the Baptists (SBC) could be that screwed up? I've never heard of an excommunication happening anywhere. (I mean the Catholics make a big deal about it and I've known a few who were booted for getting a divorce but no protestants) I've known lots of folks that were wallowing in a well known sin--drunks, adulterer's, wife beaters, etc., but I've never seen the church stand up and take action like this. Whats the deal here?

For the most part the SBC does not use CD (Church Discipline). However, Reformed SBC churches like Dever's (Capitol Hill Baptist Church) and others in the Founder's Organization do so more regularly.

In part its a numbers game (more votes ...), a lack of integrity from the pastorate downward, money, and politics/liberalism in the Church! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/flee.gif" alt="" />

doulos,

Although I don't know any details about your particular denomination, I would be willing to guess that what you have seen--or not--in your situation is similar to the majority of churches across evangelicalism.

Here are what I consider several contributing factors to the infrequent usage of biblical church discipline procedures. They are interrelated, and I'm sure you can find even bigger issues which contribute to the anti-discpline atmosphere in which we live.

[*]Emphasis on biblical inerrancy alone, rather than biblical inerrancy, sufficiency and authority together
[*]Refusal to require letters of recommendation upon transfer of church membership, which allows people under suspicion to simply move to the next church down the street when the heat is on
[*]Refusal to require covenantal bonds of membership, which allows members to piously overlook the sins of others to the detriment of the church
[*]Pietistic, self-seeking notions of church membership, which destroys the unity of the church as a body in which all members must be mutually submitted to the Lordship of Christ
[*]Loss of faith in the Holy Spirit's ability to equip the local church unto increasing sanctification and edification, through both positive and negative discipline
[*]Loss of sense of community rooted in mutual knowledge, service, accountability
[*]Abandonment of the parish model, in which local churches have as members people who live near enough to be actually involved in each other's lives
[/LIST]

Joe

I believe you can add at least two more Baptist groups to that list.
FIRE (Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals)
www.firefellowship.org
and
ASGBA (American Sovereign Grace Baptist Alliance)
www.meansbaptistchurch.com/asgba.html

Brother Bret is a member of both these organizations.

Tom

Is FIRE SBC? Your link for ASGBA does not work, though the pastor (Joey Rogers) of Means Baptist Church is SBC, however I believe he is also a member of the Founder's, isn't he?

Joe

I don't know enough about FIRE to know if it is SBC, but I do know it is associated with Baptists.

I will try to find a workable link to ASGBA, but I don't know anything about pastor Joey Rogers.

Tom

You can find the link to ASGBA here

(From Brother Bret)

Tom

Wait a second guys your link is to ARBCA -Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America, that is not American Sovereign Grace Baptist Alliance. I did a quick google search and did not find this last one.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Oh boy, you are correct about that, sorry.

Tom

Instead of asking my question here I'm going to start a new thread as it has nothing to do with excommunication, feminism, or the price of tea in China.