The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Level of fellowship with the young in faith

If you have been involved in the pastoring / discipling / teaching / catechizing of new professors of faith, what principles, if any, have guided the degree of familiarity with which you fellowship with them?

To keep it simple, let's assume only same-gender fellowship; let's also assume you fully understand doctrinally why not all may persevere.

More specifically, do you tend to be more familiar with new believers, hoping to tenderly encourage them as they begin walking in faith, or do you tend to be less familiar, not wanting to give false assurance to those who will fall; or some combination, or none of the above? Has the potential of emotional sorrow of lost fellowship when someone has fallen away affected your approach? Has anyone struggled with this?

Paul,

I tend to be "more familiar" with new professors. However, I don't see any correlation between being in close fellowship with someone and somehow giving them false assurance. It has never been my practice to tell anyone that they are infallibly reconciled with God and justified in His sight. I believe that only the Holy Spirit is warranted and capable of instilling assurance in anyone's heart. The advantage, IMHO, of having a close relationship with new believers is that they will gain personal insight in seeing what it is to be a disciple of Christ; warts and all; e.g., the struggles, sorrow, disappointments, rejection, persecution and sins as well as witnessing the determination to stand and not falter when temptations come, the deep peace, joy, satisfaction, etc. which only one united to Christ by true faith experiences.

Surely there is the potential and real sorrow when someone you have worked with for any length of time appears to go astray. Yet, we know that there are many who will honor God with their lips but their heart is far from Him. The Lord Christ was never quick to accept one's professed belief at face value, for He knew what was in man. It would be wise for us to learn from His wisdom.

John 2:23-25 (ASV) Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, and because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.

In His Grace,

Dear Paul. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll share with you my experiences but I have to confess that I'm not really sure what it is that your after here.

I believe that fellowshipping is important in our lives. But I also believe there is a big difference between Christian fellowship and socializing. I have to confess that I'm somewhat of a stoic when it comes to how I act among the brethren. I tend to suppress my emotions and act somewhat stiff if you will. But I do this on purpose because I'm not fellowshipping to "socialize." I have a purpose when I'm in the company of other Christians and that is to learn, instruct, edify and share the gospel with my brethren. That is why I'm at church and that is what I focus on. So out of my love for my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, I do not have any fear of whom I'm communicating with. I tell it like it is because I feel that's what God wants me to do. I also realize that there are those who do not wish to be involved with deeper biblical conversation and I realize that I might be preaching to the choir with some and offending others.... but I really can't tell where most people are in their walk so I treat everyone the same. Some I might offend, some I might water, some I might be planting a seed. Who knows, only God.

Do I fear emotional sorrow of lost fellowship.... Nope, not at all..... been there done that and over it. God has really broken me of being hurt or offended by others. I've come to really keep my focus on my family. So when I go to church I'm not really looking for friends and being accepted and or being "needed." I go to share the gospel and to help others, to learn, train and to worship and praise the Lord.

With new believers, I tend to just get to know them and to offer my assistance to them if they want it. I tend to wait for them to open a window of opportunity for me to share the gospel. I try to be careful with people, don't get me wrong, but when I share the gospel, I don't hold back. So anyway, I'm not sure if this helps any, but It's my 2 cents worth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Y.B.I.C,

Dave.

Dave--

I agree that we need to be careful of falling into the "trap" of too much socializing and church just becoming a "social club" with no substance, but there is a "trap" the other way. But we should reach out and be friends with our fellow believers and we should develop close, tightnit relationships with our brothers/sisters and especially those new in the faith that we are discipling. If that aspect is not present, there will be an important missing element in a church. Are we not to love each other as Christ commanded us??
In light of being "emersed" in the emergent church stuff for the last year. This is an attraction in that movement - community. Unfortunately the foundation and proper truth is not there. Community is a very important element in the church. When we first started going to the church we're at now, the founding pastor was really into small groups (and with the right content then too!!) and he was always friendly and graciously opened his home for get togethers, bible study, etc. It spurred others to go do the same thing. I think this is a gift - hospitality I guess is what you'd call it. I think at my age now and as a mother I feel more isolated than when I was without kids and single. People around here are so busy with having their kids in all the sports/activities they can that meeting together weekly for bible study takes a back seat. Fortunately the Body of Christ is big and I don't have to just rely on my Church.
Also being just plain real is important. I know I'm really turned off when I think someone is trying to be too "churchy/perfect" like and they are not being their real selves. One can be very committed and teach the correct truth and doctrine and also be real. I think that speaks volumes to those who will listen.

Pilgrim,

Thanks for the reply!I fully agree. I was not clear about my particular situation, in which I teach 1 weekly class to about a dozen men in a discipleship program. While some men remain in the program for its intended duration of 1 year, most leave after a number of months, some after a week or two. In an attempt to encourage those who truly believe--which number is obviously known only to the Lord--I like to try to speak to the new men for a few minutes, although I don't always do it with every man. At the same time I like to keep deepening relationships with those who have been around longer, who usually are those seeming to make more progress. My concern over giving false assurance is not about what I say, but rather about my balancing time spent with older and newer arrivals so as not to show favoritism. The men are always in close proximity, so I don't want (newcomer) A thinking: "wow, P seems to be treating me just like he treats (old-timer) B, who really has it together. He must think I'm doing all right too!" Looks silly, having typed it out, but it has weighed on me at times: should I be less familiar with the newer men until I can sense from their conversation and conduct whether they even hope to persevere, or will I miss opportunities by doing so?

As I write, I am recalling "make the most of every opportunity". That seems best, without being concerned over appearances!

Dear Dave,

Thanks for your reply! I can appreciate your feeling a need to maintain a stoic approach to fellowship, having a naturally stoic--the stereotypical taciturn New Englander--personality myself. But I have trouble reconciling that with glimpses we get of Paul:

I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? (2 Cor 11:28-29)

and

we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us. (1 Thess 2:7-8)

and

I wrote to you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you. (2 Cor 2:4)

I can't make Paul seem a stoic, and if he wasn't, I don't want to be one either. Now he was certainly reconciled to the necessity of removal of false professors from fellowship, but if his passion for fellowship was as strong as seen above, I have to believe that there was some temporary grief involved if one who seemed to be standing suddenly fell.

Again, I do not see "assurance of salvation" to be inexplicably joined to one's depth of fellowship and/or familiarity with others. In fact, one could rightly reason that the more "familiar" you become with the newer men, 1) the better you will get to know them and thus minister to them more effectively, 2) openness and fellowshipping with a new man might be that one thing that dispels any apprehension some surely have about joining a group where there are established relationships between those who have been attending and/or who know each other personally outside of the group, and 3) I would simply iterate what I wrote in my first reply, that being able to befriend a newer man will also allow such a man to see you for who you really are (a scary thought indeed), at least in part, and thus by your example of word and deed better understand what the Christian life is actually about; as opposed to that fictitious and fallacious picture painted by the "Prosperity Preachers" and most Arminian churches, many of whom tell people that if they will just let Jesus into their heart, all their sorrows and difficulties in life will disappear, etc., (aka: the gospel of the changed life). <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,

I agree with you, and what you wrote encouraged me to renew my desire to make the most of every opportunity. (see below) Thanks.

Dear Dave,

I wanted to illustrate what I mean by fellowship/more familiar/emotional involvement, not in a boasting way, but just out of gratitude to the Lord for some really nice opportunities which opened today at our church's Memorial Day picnic, which I feel would not have occured had I been "less familiar", or felt it impoper to fellowship apart from "sharing the gospel".

..I had a few wonderful minutes with a brother from a different church, a former muslim who is entering Westminster this fall to become more grounded in the Word, whom I had never met before, learning first-hand about life under Idi Amin. We spoke of not fretting over the wicked, of persecution strengthening the church, of Uganda then, of the Sudan now, of rising persecution in the West, of complacent materialism being a more ominous threat to the church.

...One student of several months shared how, although he is committed to restoring relations with his wife and children, if her continued rejection of him--due to his being a Christian--continues, he is committed to seeking the Lord whatever the cost.

...A church member seemed a little too quiet, and it took a while for him to open up about his urgent need for affordable housing, and his discouragement at finding work which would open more options. He agreed to speak with a pastor who may have options available.

..Another student has been in the program only a week. We compared notes on our mutual enjoyment of the 60's-lite band that was playing (Denver, Birds, etc.) and slowly his story came out: he is a guitarist, raised in East Berlin, political prisoner in the 70's, released in a prisoner exchange, ashamed of post-war Germany... When I got home and remembered I had a long-unused German "Die Bibel" on the shelf, I wish you could have seen his eyes when I asked if it would help him in his bible study...

..And yes, my family and I had a great time together as well, from what I could see.

"Sharing the Gospel" has to take place in a context of real life. The Lord created us to be cultural beings, which requires real communication, in which emotional interaction must play a part, I feel. There is certainly a place for direct exposition of the Word--and I love to point newer (and older) believers back to Christ--always back to Christ--but I believe the Lord is glorified when Christ is seen as Lord of every real situation, and biblical fellowship is a blessed means of seeing that worked out in his Church. I don't see how this fellowship can be realize without time, availability, energy, emotional investment being made in people's lives.

Hehe.... you remind me of Francis Schaeffer. I agree with you Paul. In your examples above though, you have found some people who kept it real and honest with you and that is truly awesome. It is very hard to find people who are genuinely interested in being truthful and deep. Unfortunately, I have a hard time finding such people myself. The people I come into contact with on average stay surface level pretty much and do not like to go any deeper. I on the other hand have a deep love for my brethren and I am looking to extend my emotional and intellectual self to anyone seeking my friendship. In fact, the whole reason I evangelize and fellowship in the first place is out of my deep desire to help people come too or grow in Christ. But, I still have an introverted personality and remain stoic, in a sense that I am not wide eyed and bushy tailed all the time. I remain serious in my conversations with an even tone and I have little interest in talking about the weather or the latest gossip. But when I do find the occasional someone who is interested in carrying on a conversation trust me, I'm all for it.... it's what I truly desire. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dave.

Dear Dave,
I have been inordinately blessed to have 2 elders who went to L'Abri in its heyday in the late 60's, were transformed there, and have lived out what they heard there in this urban setting. Hopefully some of it has rubbed off!Certainly shallowness is a common evasive tactic among those running from the truth of the Word of God, but for others it can be a way of greasing the skids of familiarity, leading to the openness and trust in which deeper communication can take root. Rather than "looking to extend my emotional and intellectual self to anyone seeking my friendship", I prefer to believe that I may be able to help some who couldn't care beans about my friendship, that it is up to me to seek them out, because that is how I would hope to be treated--and more importantly, because that is how I have been treated. If it means starting by talking about the weather, or sports, or news, or family, or job, I am convinced that all conversation can be engaged in to the glory of God, without compartmentalizing the "sacred" from the "secular". Of course there are forbidden forms--you mentioned gossip--but if those arise, there's another opportunity to speak the truth in love!

BTW, I can guarantee you that never in my life has anyone ever thought of me as a "wide eyed and bushy tailed" personality! In a crowded room I would find it naturally easier and more preferable to count the dots on floor tiles than to start a conversation with someone who may not reciprocate, but I have never regretted the times I have done so, because so many opportunities to speak about the Lord arise, and that truly excites this ex-stoic!

Of course there are those who remain shallow--whether through immaturity or intentional evasion, God knows--but I would rather err on the side of "offered fellowship rejected" than "needed fellowship withheld". 2 Timothy 2:16,22-26 seems to create the proper balance:
"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. ... Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Very well spoken Paul and, necessary I believe for a "Stoic" like me to hear from time to time. I'm afraid I get too wrapped up and focused on the epistles and forget about the gospels. This thread has encouraged me to try to open up and concentrate on being loving and kind instead all "instruction" and to the point. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thank you for your wisdom brother. Wow..... 2 elders who went to L'Abri! Sounds like you attend a pretty awesome church. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You're blessed.

Dave.

Good morning, Paul and Dave,

I've been reading your exchange about reaching out in friendship and I must tell you that it has been a balm for my soul.

We have been members of a church for nearly two years. We are involved in service and have been diligent in trying to establish close relationships with the people in our church. We've reached out in more ways that I can tell you, but it seems at times as though we'll never make close friends with anyone at the church. Rich Mullins put it this way, "Some people are friendly, but they'll never be your friend." We are a friendly, welcoming church but after the initial welcome it seems most are satisfied with the way things are and have always been. There doesn't seem to be room in their lives for "new people." Lately, this has been very heavy on my heart, to the point of deep sadness and even loneliness. I tend to be a stoic myself, and at the same time a bit of a Pollyanna. (or a Steve Erkle--"I'n wearing you dowwwnnn. . .!!!) But lately it has really been hard and I have felt like giving up--even as recently as last night!

Paul said:

"I would rather err on the side of 'offered fellowship rejected' than 'needed fellowship withheld'."

It's a good reminder to me. I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but that had been my response until recently when I began to just feel like giving up.

I am also reminded of another Paul's admonition from Galatians:

"And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith."

Thanks for your encouragement this morning. You may never know who may be reading these posts, nor how God can use them to minister to the readers.

Dave,

Thanks for the open-hearted responses! From what you have said about yourself, I can easily sympathize with a disinclination to reach out, and have been glad to hear that I am not alone in these struggles! And yes, I have been blessed!

Kim,

Over the years I have had to adjust my expectation of "close friendship" within the body away from an ideal of "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers" who share exclusively in every aspect of each others' lives, to one of "attempted fellowship with whoever crosses my path, as appropriate in the Lord, according to the gifts he has equipped me with, to as intense a level of discourse as they are willing to bear, as unto the Lord". Sounds like you are doing the same. Sometimes this never goes beyond a 2-minute "conversation", sometimes it approaches the old ideal, and most of the time is somewhere in between. Sometimes the wonderful happens, as when a woman and her children came to church 2 weeks ago, saying she needed to return to the Lord. Several women in the church recalled the last time they had seen her, as a girl in the after-school club, twenty years ago!!! They remembered her name, and she remembered where she could find the ones who had first started to teach her the ways of the Lord.

One of my pastors always reminds us that the Christian life is easy to imitate, but impossible to live and maintain with integrity, apart from the supernatural life of Christ in us from start to finish. His grace alone can motivate us to persevere:

When through fiery trials your pathway shall lie,
My grace, all-sufficient, shall be your supply;
The flame shall not hurt you; I only design
your dross to consume and your gold to refine.

His grace is sufficient for service;
it sets us from selfishness free
And sends us to tell to the tried ones:
"His grace is sufficient for thee;
His grace is sufficient for thee."


I pray, and am confident, that you will find continued strength to persevere in this impossible life!

1 Th 4:9 Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other. 10 And in fact, you do love all the brothers throughout Macedonia. Yet we urge you, brothers, to do so more and more.



P.S. We haven't seen Steve Erkle in about 10 years! Is it still playing where you are? The kids video-taped a Laura vs. Steve skit for Mother's Day once.