The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Babies, toddlers and the mentally retarded

1)It would appear that for you, "regeneration" is synonymous with "justification by faith". Is this correct? If not could you offer an explanation why your wrote what you did?

2) I'm not familiar with any biblical statement that one who is regenerate/justified is "immediately returned to his baptism". Could you please provide Scriptural evidence for this view?

3) And lastly, in regard to this: "wherein [baptism] all his sins are washed away in the blood of Christ.", you provided the following texts as support:

Titus 3:5 (ASV) "not by works [done] in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"

The text says nothing about baptism, but rather, "according to his mercy" God saves those who believe through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. It is by the new birth and the life-changing work of the Holy Spirit that God saves.

Revelation 7:14 (ASV) "And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Again, nothing is mentioned whatsoever about baptism in this text either. Further, the person's referred to are a specific group, i.e., "they that come of the great tribulation,", which cannot be applied universally to all believers, never mind those who have been allegedly baptised. And, those referred to "washed their robes . . . in the blood of Christ", which undoubtedly refers to their being justified by Christ through faith.

Romans 6:3 (ASV) "Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?"

Here the Apostle is addressing believers and for the purpose of empahsizing upon them that since they have professed Christ, then they are to live as those who have been united to Him, both in his death and resurrection. The subject in this text is one of admonition in regard to the forsaking of sin and living a life that exhibits the newness of life which belongs to those united to Christ; i.e., a forsaking of sin and a life of righteousness. Paul is not teaching any sacerdotal doctrine of the efficacy of baptism, but rather the "identification" one has with Christ by faith and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit which is displayed in baptism.

1 Peter 3:21 (ASV) "which also after a true likeness doth now save you, [even] baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;"

As with the previous passage, Rom 6:3, Peter is not teaching any efficacy of baptism but rather the significance of it as an "emblem" of that which it signifies, i.e., salvation by the mercy and grace of God in the Lord Christ. This is understood easily enough when one sees how Peter refers back to the time of Noah (v. 20) and how he and his family were delivered from destruction by the flood waters. It wasn't the water that saved them, but God's mercy. If a physical element is to be insisted upon, then it would have to be the ark rather than the water. Peter further clarifies this when he says that it isn't the physical water which is effective to wash away the external filth of the body but contrariwise it is one's "good conscience toward God", i.e., a new disposition in regard to His person and grace and that applied to them as believers due to the benefits given to them which Christ merited; shown in His resurrection. All these truths belong ONLY to those who actually possess a saving faith, as it is to those ALONE to whom Peter is addressing, (cf. 1Pet 1:1, 15, 17, 21-23; 2:2, 3, 7, 9, 11, 25; et al)

And likewise, Peter is writing to believers to instill in them the need to live a life of holiness in spite of the persecution they encounter, both from without and within. It has no application to "babies, infants and the mentally retarded"; the subject of this thread.

In His Grace,

Yes. One can not be regenerate without being justified and one can not be justified without being regenerate.


My scriptural references provided the scriptural proof that justification by faith (regeneration) returns a person to his baptism through the reception of the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit. But, it is clear you wish to assign a symbolic rather than a literal meaning to all these texts.

I'll leave you to your errors after this one last question since I believe you have demonstrated that further dialog on this subject with you would be pointless.

Since the Bible teaches that regeneration (aka: new birth, born from above/again, made alive, et al) is the secret and sovereign work of God. And it is that which no man actually experiences but rather man only experiences the results of regeneration. (Jh 3:1-12). And since you say that regeneration is identical to being justified by faith . . .

QUESTION: How do you reconcile this when in the Scriptures we see sinners being called to faith, to believe in Christ, in order to BE justified if justification by faith is a secret and sovereign work of the Holy Spirit alone of which no man has a part and which he does not experience anything?

It seems to me as it has for millions of Christians since the days when the Scriptures were written and read that regeneration and conversion, i.e., a believing upon Christ unto justification are inseparable yet mutually exclusive to each other. They are incontrovertibly NOT synonymous.

In His Grace,

The only essential and necessary elements of justfication are the grace of God, the merit of Christ, and faith which is solely a work of the Holy Spirit. Man has no part in this work. He is entirely passive in the proper reception of Word and Sacrament through which the Holy Spirit works regeneration and faith.

Who exercises faith?

Those to whom the Holy Spirit comes through the external Word and Sacrament. Age is no barrier (e.g., John the Baptist who was called in the womb by the salutation of Mary exercised his faith in joy, Luke 1:41-44; the child whom Jesus called believed in Him, Matthew 18:2-6; children who are called through baptism repent, Acts 2: 38, 39).

We know that faith is what justifies, and faith is necessarily exercised by the subject (the regenerated elect person) toward the object of faith (Christ). On the other hand, the subject which regenerates is the Holy Spirit, and the object of regeneration is the elect person. It is necessary for the elect person to be regenerated in order to exercise faith. This being the case, how is it that you say that regeneration is the same thing as justification, when it is clear that regeneration PRECEDES the exercise of faith?

Pilgrim,

After reading one of your posts on "Questions concerning salvation", I once again became confused about this topic. You said:


So my question is, how do these verses that implicitly reveal that salvation can ONLY come through hearing (or reading of course) and what was semi-concluded in this thread, tie up?

I believe they cannot. How do those babies who do not hear the Word of God, and those mentally retarded who cannot understand language itself possibly come to grips with the Good News?

True, the Spirit works WHEN, WHERE and HOW He pleases... but doesn't the Spirit's work require the Gospel to be preached or read?

When I was concieved, 3 weeks after conception, there were 2 heartbeats on the ultra-sound image. 2 weeks later, that heartbeat was gone. So an everlasting soul died. That soul didn't have the chance to hear the Word of God. How is it possible that he/she could possibly come to salvation?

Are the possibilities that I mention just part of the consequences of the fall?

Is it not possible that God's elect are only the ones who are saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ, AFTER HEARING the Good News?

Difficult things to get to grips with... I mean, if this is all true, then we will know beyone a shadow of a doubt where that baby/mentally retarded person has gone. I may of course be wrong, and you will have to correct me <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sincerely in Him,
Dave

All of those texts deal directly and specifically in regard to those who are NOT "unborn, infants, mentally retarded, etc." but rather to those who are physically/mentally capable of hearing and comprehending the Gospel. The answer to your question is found in the fact that no one is capable of hearing, never mind believing upon Christ unless they are "born again" (aka: regenerated). It is from the newly (re)created nature that the ability to hear (inward call; irresistible grace) and believe flow. In "normal" individuals, this regeneration is outwardly expressed by a profession of faith and a life which evidences that faith. However, in the case of those individuals you have asked about, the outward expressions of regeneration will not be evident. Yet, the lack of outward, physical expressions does not in any way negate the reality of regeneration, for that is the sole and sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. It is the union of the soul with Christ and the application of His atonement that saves.

I freely admit that how the actual union with Christ of the soul of an unborn child is a "mystery". Yet it would be foolish, IMHO, to deny that it can take place, for we are dealing foremost with spiritual matters that are not perceptible to the physical eye. As Jesus explained to Nicodemus in regard to regeneration, it is something beyond the perception and experience of a human being, yet it is undeniably happens. We only perceive the results.

Hopefully, this will answer your question(s)? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

Pilgrim,

I'm still not 100% clear on this.


Perfectly understandable, yes.


Ok, I'm a little confused by this. Is justification and regeneration the same thing? Or they are 2 things that occur at the same time?


Now I am HECTICALLY confused! Hehe! I recall being convicted of sin and my hopelessness before God BEFORE I was saved by grace through faith. Doesn't the inward call (i.e. conviction of sin and realising one's total depravity) start to happen BEFORE one is regenerated? Or am I misunderstanding what the inward call is?

AHHH! I'm so confused! All I know is that the blood of Jesus is sufficient to cleanse me from my sin! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I still don't understand how they can come to salvation without hearing/reading/grasping/understanding the way of salvation. Are you implying that God reveals His plan of salvation to those people through spiritual means? Is there Scripture to back this up?

I actually think it's my confusion as to what exactly JUSTIFICATION and REGENERATION are that are the cause of my confusion..

Sincerely,
Dave

Our exercise of faith, in no way, justifies us before God. The exercise of faith is always impure because of the old man that dwells within us.

It is not the exercise of faith that justifies but faith itself that justifies. Faith is not a good work but a gift of God whereby we lay hold of Christ and His righteousness not having a righteousness of our own.

Yes, regeneration precedes the exercise of faith. However, that is not the question. The question is: Does regeneration precede justification by faith? If so, what is your scriptural support?

Elect babies are regenerated; non elect babies aren't.
All babies aren't elect, otherwise the Lord wouldn't have destroyed Sodom, since there were obviously babies there.

Doc,

Who says there were any babies in Sodom? Homosexuals don't make babies! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Wes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

They are decidedly mutually exclusive yet inseparable.

1) Regeneration (narrowly defined) is that act of God by which the principle of the new life (new birth) is implanted in man, and the governing disposition of the soul is made holy, and the first holy exercise of this new disposition is secured. In short it is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit whereby the natural hatred of God which all men are born with which produces their inability to love God and His commandments (total depravity) is, in principle, eradicated and a new nature is created which is prone to love God and all that is good.

See more here:
The Nature, Causes and Means of Regeneration, by John Owen
Regeneration or the New Birth, by A.W. Pink
The New Genesis: The Holy Spirit and Regeneration, by R.C. Sproul
Regeneration and Conversion, by Samuel Hopkins

2) Justification is the judicial pronouncement of God upon a sinner who has repented of his/her sins and believes upon the Lord Christ, in regard to His person and atoning work.

See more here:
Sola Fide - Justification by Faith

Yes, you are misunderstanding what the "inward call" is. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Before regeneration, no one has any real interest whatsoever in God, Christ or salvation, never mind seeing themselves as a filthy sinner who stands guilty before God and is liable to judgment. In regeneration, see above, the new nature is created within the soul, the fruit of which is conviction of sin, desire for reconciliation God, recognition of the all sufficiency and loveliness of Christ and a hunger after righteousness. This result of regeneration is called, "conversion", i.e., the expressed sentiments of the new heart created in regeneration. Conversion will immediately and infallibly follow regeneration. The "inward call" (aka: irresistible grace) is most always connected to an "outward call"; e.g., the preaching/reading of the Gospel (Scriptures) through which the Holy Spirit works within.

See more here:
Irresistible Grace, by John Murray
Efficacious Grace, by Loraine Boettner
The Call that Brings a Response, by Paul Helm

What I believe you need to grasp is that "normally", God uses outward means to regenerate, call, justify and sanctify the elect. These are applicable to those who are physically and mentally capable of apprehending them. Yet, what actually brings salvation is the sovereign spiritual (invisible) work of the Holy Spirit in the elect's soul, which "normally" is expressed outwardly and visibly. However, when regeneration occurs, the natural and infallible response of the new nature is a reaching out to God. The fact that it may not be perceptible does not negate its reality. In the case of an unborn infant, whom God has determined to call to Himself from the womb, the Holy Spirit works the same regeneration, i.e., creating a new nature, which is irresistibly drawn to God by design. That reaching out to God in an adult, for example, is always perceptible and it is called, "repentance" and "belief". But the impetus behind those outward expressions is that new nature. Beyond that, that is how the soul of an unborn infant or mentally retarded individual who is of the elect takes hold of Christ is something which I am not privy to.

As for providing Scripture for all this, I would point you to all the texts which speak of the very design and purpose of regeneration, i.e., to reconcile a sinner to God through a union with Christ. Since God has ordained the salvation of the elect and likewise ordained the means of calling and justifying them, ALL such are infallibly saved.

Well, I hope the above fares better at clearing things up a little for you. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In His Grace,

ABSOLUTELY NOT...... it is NOT "faith itself that justifies", my friend, but Christ, upon the union with Him through faith (a vehicle, means), God declares the sinner justified. Faith in and of itself has absolutely no value whatsoever. It is the OBJECT of faith that justifies. I am shocked to see you write such a thing.

See here: Justification by Faith Alone, by Rev. Joel Beeke. This is probably one of the finest and clearest biblical explanations of Sola Fide ever written outside of the author's of Scripture.

In His Grace,