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Delivered said:
To CovenantInBlood:
As much as you may not have received my apology for my attitude in the past discourse (owing to the fact that you have not acknowledged it), I did say I was sorry and am taking a calmer approach to this discussion. I was unable to access my E-mail until this afternoon, but I have now replied to it. Now I have read the passage in 1Corinthians 13 speaking about all kinds of Spiritual Gifts, among them Profecy and Tongues, Knowledge, Kindness etc. and I do not agree that this passage says that Tongues and Prophecy do not exist at this time as this is still a part of the dispensation of Grace. I do think that it was meant to show the importance of Love over any gift, and I happen to agree with this thought. Love is the primary gift that we get from God. It is Love that motivated Him as stated in John 3:16. Love is not a charismatic gift. The distinguishing characteristics of charismatic gifts was their function as signs and as revelation. Tongues, prophecy, and knowledge in I Cor. 13 are revelatory; love is not. The charismatic gifts were signs to confirm the ministry of the apostles, and tongues in particular was a sign that the Gentiles would be included and that the administration of the Mosaic Covenant would cease. With the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the completion of the New Testament canon by the end of the 1st Century A.D., the charismatic gifts ceased. Where we disagree, and therefore, owing to the fact that the idea is a fundamental principle of our theology, is where it is said that God only speaks through the Bible now, I think that this is a serious topic for both of us and we should just agree to disagree since we both hold to our belief on this matter. Please take some time to read the following article, which explains my position on the matter of God's speaking through the Bible alone more thoroughly: " Does God Speak Today Apart from the Bible?" by R. Fowler White. Up to recently there has been much discussion over the period of time before the Letters comprising the New Testament scriptures were written and compiled and this therefore makes it difficult to place the actual time on the publishing (in whatever form) of our Bible. So at what time did the Prophecies and Tongues stop alltogether? Is there a part in the Bible that says it stopped at this point after the last letter was written and which letter is the last. The last book to be written in the New Testament is John's Revelation. This book was completed in the early-to-mid 90's A.D. None of the charismatic gifts continued after that point, since John was the last apostle alive and Revelation was the last book of inspired Scripture. Thus Paul's words in the last verses of I Cor. 13 were fulfilled, when he predicted the coming of the "perfect" or "complete." The real question to ask is why God saves anyone. It's not like God is lonely and needs us. It's by God's sheer unconditional mercy and love that anyone is saved.
(See Romans 11:33-36) Of course, I've never disputed it.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Delivered said:
. . . I believe, that the evryone will get the opportunity to hear the gopel of Jesus Christ and it can happen in the abscence of access to the Bible in their own language or in the abscence of a "preacher" speaking that language. Let's take your several statements as they appear in your reply: 1) Can you show from Scripture where it is clearly stated that everyone, i.e., without exception, beginning with Adam to the last man on earth, will get the opportunity to hear the Gospel? What I do read however, is that the ordained means by which the Holy Spirit works in the elect to bring them to Christ is through the preaching/reading of the Word of God; i.e., the Gospel found only in the written, inspired, infallible Scriptures.
John 20:30-31 (ASV) "Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name."
Romans 1:16-17 (ASV) "For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
Romans 10:14-15, 17 (ASV) "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things! . . . So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
1 Corinthians 1:21 (ASV) "For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe."
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (ASV) "Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain."
Titus 1:3 (ASV) "but in his own seasons manifested his word in the message, wherewith I was intrusted according to the commandment of God our Saviour;"
Then you wrote:
I believe that the Holy Spirit moves upon whomever is yielded to Him and that just as He moved upon Paul and Peter and the Apostles and upon the congregation who Paul addressed in 1Corinthians 14:1-40, that the Holy Spirit still moves upon persons today. The problems here are at least two-fold: 1) No one by nature will nor can yield to God, unless they have first been given a new nature. Due to the effects of the Fall (aka: Original Sin), all men are born with a corrupt nature which is at enmity with God, i.e., they hate God and all that is good. (cf. Gen 6:5; 8:21; Job 15:14-16; Psa 51:5; 58:3; Eccl 7:20; 9:3; Jer 17:9; Jh 3:3, 5; Rom 3:10-18; 8:7, 8; 1Cor 2:14; Eph 4:17-19; et al.)
John 6:44, 65 (ASV) "No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. . . . And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father."
Matthew 11:25-26 (ASV) "At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight."
2) The manner which the Holy Spirit moved upon the Apostles, disciples and Paul was no different than He how He worked from the beginning; i.e., through the preaching of the Prophets of old who declared the works of God and the necessity for men to repent and be reconciled to God. And this final word, the culmination which came with the incarnation of the living WORD Who then entrusted the complete message to them was also written down and preached.
Hebrews 1:1-2 (ASV) "God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [his] Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;"
2 Corinthians 5:20 (ASV) "We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech [you] on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God."
Lastly, you wrote:
Where we disagree, and therefore, owing to the fact that the idea is a fundamental principle of our theology, is where it is said that God only speaks through the Bible now, I think that this is a serious topic for both of us and we should just agree to disagree since we both hold to our belief on this matter. You may choose to ignore the seriousness of the doctrine you now embrace but that isn't going to make it any less fallacious. Either one believes that the Bible is THE sole and finally authority in all matters of faith and practice, or one believes that the Bible is A source of authority in addition to: direct revelation from God, a human source, e.g., the pope, Joseph Smith, The Watchtower, Buddha, et al. I would encourage you to read the following article at your earliest convenience: Does God Speak Today Apart From the Bible?, by Dr. R. Fowler White. In His Grace,
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
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Pilgrim said:guidedbygrace, There are a number of articles on The Highway that deal with this particular subject, e.g., the cessation of tongues, prophesy, etc. Click here: The Charismatic Movement Thank you, Pilgrim. This is particularly timely as I am right now reading through the book of Acts and examining things such as this.
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The real question to ask is why God saves anyone. It's not like God is lonely and needs us. It's by God's sheer unconditional mercy and love that anyone is saved. (See Romans 11:33-36) Was that intended to be a reply to me? I'll assume it was. Amen to Romans 11:33-36. My point was that God did not have to choose to save anyone. So why would God have to give everyone the chance to hear the Gospel. The fact of the matter is that all of mankind fell in Adam. And now we are born rebels who hate God. Romans 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES." Romans 5
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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Quote:
You may choose to ignore the seriousness of the doctrine you now embrace but that isn't going to make it any less fallacious. Either one believes that the Bible is THE sole and finally authority in all matters of faith and practice, or one believes that the Bible is A source of authority in addition to: direct revelation from God, a human source, e.g., the pope, Joseph Smith, The Watchtower, Buddha, et al. I would encourage you to read the following article at your earliest convenience:
The Bible is written by men inspired by God.
It is the Word of God and throughout my life it has guided my life kept me out of more trouble than I could handle. It made sure that I never lost sight of the fact that I am a sinner and I made me know who I need to turn to for my, deliverance from sin, help, explanations, etc. Now you provide for me a copy of a quotation from me in which I stated that men like the pope etal and any human source takes president over the Bible, or for that matter, where did I say that a human source can provide a revelation equal to that of the Bible???
In fact as much as you do not seem interested in what I have said by the way in which you have not noticed that the recurring theme in most of my posts is that God and God alone is the source of our Salvation and not even theology can equate or replace His Will for us. Theology is based on human understanding and the fact that we cannot earn Salvation though it is recited over and over it is not understood. I say that a person can be drawn to God by God Himself as supported by John 6:44, 65 and you say that the only way that this can happen is by the preaching of the Gospel and reading of the Bible. All I am saying is that God choses to draw whomever, wherever, whenever and nothing we say can change this.
By saying that I believe that God can draw us directly by speaking to us directly or impressing upon us that we are sinners in need of His forgiveness, that for saying this you equate me to someone who supports an idea that can give credence to the establishment of man inpired and false god inspired religion(False god because you could not possible be saying that if the real True God speaks now it is less important than the Bible)???
Furthermore I also said that such revelations would have to be confirmed by a Bible text. I never said that this revelation should stand on it's on or that it is to overshadow the Bible. I suggested that we agree to disagree on this matter owing to the fact that it seems impossible for us to get past theological precepts. Whereas "that which is perfect" is now believed to be the Word of God by most theological camps, however perfect is applied to God Deut 32:4, 2 Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30, so I believe that "That which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 describes the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ. Is Christ not Perfect? Is He not coming again? Will not His coming put all theories and Partial understanding to rest?
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Persnickety Presbyterian |
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Delivered said:
The Bible is written by men inspired by God.
It is the Word of God and throughout my life it has guided my life kept me out of more trouble than I could handle. It made sure that I never lost sight of the fact that I am a sinner and I made me know who I need to turn to for my, deliverance from sin, help, explanations, etc. Now you provide for me a copy of a quotation from me in which I stated that men like the pope etal and any human source takes president over the Bible, or for that matter, where did I say that a human source can provide a revelation equal to that of the Bible??? Any direct revelation from God is by its very nature equal in authority to the Bible, because it is from the mouth of God. So if someone claims to prophesy, and you accept that claim, then by necessity you must consider that prophecy as being on equal standing with Scripture, because both would be the Word of God. In fact as much as you do not seem interested in what I have said by the way in which you have not noticed that the recurring theme in most of my posts is that God and God alone is the source of our Salvation and not even theology can equate or replace His Will for us. Theology is based on human understanding and the fact that we cannot earn Salvation though it is recited over and over it is not understood. No one has said anything like this. Theology is the study of God. It describes Him and His will for us by examining Scripture. It does not save us, no, but it explains to us how anyone arrives at salvation. I say that a person can be drawn to God by God Himself as supported by John 6:44, 65 and you say that the only way that this can happen is by the preaching of the Gospel and reading of the Bible. All I am saying is that God choses to draw whomever, wherever, whenever and nothing we say can change this. And according to the Scripture, He does so THROUGH THE PREACHING OF THE WORD, as Paul outlines in Rom. 10. God Himself has so revealed and so chosen this method of salvation. No one will be saved apart from the Gospel. So if someone today never hears the Gospel, it is evident that he is reprobate and he will be condemned to hell. Furthermore I also said that such revelations would have to be confirmed by a Bible text. I never said that this revelation should stand on it's on or that it is to overshadow the Bible. I suggested that we agree to disagree on this matter owing to the fact that it seems impossible for us to get past theological precepts. Whereas "that which is perfect" is now believed to be the Word of God by most theological camps, however perfect is applied to God Deut 32:4, 2 Samuel 22:31, Psalm 18:30, so I believe that "That which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 describes the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ. Is Christ not Perfect? Is He not coming again? Will not His coming put all theories and Partial understanding to rest? What we're not getting past are THE SCRIPTURES, which you interpret in light of your experiences rather than interpreting your experiences in light of Scripture. The Greek word for "perfect" in I Cor. 13:10 is teleios, which means "brought to an end, finished; needing nothing more for completeness; perfect." Has Scripture been "brought to an end, finished"? Doesn't Scripture "need nothing more for completeness"? Isn't Scripture "perfect"? Furthermore, how will faith and hope abide (I Cor. 13:13) when Christ comes again? Won't our faith be sight and our hope be reality?
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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I'm staying out of this one except to say that this bit here: CovenantInBlood
What we're not getting past are THE SCRIPTURES, which you interpret in light of your experiences rather than interpreting your experiences in light of Scripture. The Greek word for "perfect" in I Cor. 13:10 is teleios, which means "brought to an end, finished; needing nothing more for completeness; perfect." Has Scripture been "brought to an end, finished"? Doesn't Scripture "need nothing more for completeness"? Isn't Scripture "perfect"? Furthermore, how will faith and hope abide (I Cor. 13:13) when Christ comes again? Won't our faith be sight and our hope be reality? ...is great. Preach on bro! Someone list the Sola's here in English for this fellow. Perhaps that'll help.
Josh "...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
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True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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COvenantInBlood wrote:
What we're not getting past are THE SCRIPTURES, which you interpret in light of your experiences rather than interpreting your experiences in light of Scripture. The Greek word for "perfect" in I Cor. 13:10 is teleios, which means "brought to an end, finished; needing nothing more for completeness; perfect." Has Scripture been "brought to an end, finished"? Doesn't Scripture "need nothing more for completeness"? Isn't Scripture "perfect"? Furthermore, how will faith and hope abide (I Cor. 13:13) when Christ comes again? Won't our faith be sight and our hope be reality?
Dealing with the latter part first. When Christ comes again as you say and I agree, our hope will become reality and our faith will become sight. So I believe that the scripture in 1 Corinthians 13 speaks to the coming of Christ so What we know in part will be completed. That is my belief from this Scripture. Our theology says that it is the word that is the perfect thing that is being reffered to. I say that the WOrd is perfect. However this passage in 1 Corinthians 13 is speaking of the coming of Jesus and that is finality the completed thing.
Also the "Tongues" in the 1 verse of this chapter is the same recurring through the entire chapter and the verse itself refers to the tongues of men and of angels. The Tongue here being a Language that is spoken by men and men speaking the Language of Angels and further down in the scripture at verse 8 saying clearly that this will cease along with prophecy (Shall fail=Abolish, cease do away). I believe this too because it is scripture.
"That which is perfect" =Of Full Age, completeness) Colossians 2:10 "And you are complete in Him (Christ) which is the Head of All Principality and Power. The next verse in 1 Corinthians 13, verse 11 speaks to growing up coming of Age and being completed and the only time that will happen my brother is when Christ comes and we are complete in Him. All questions anwered, all knowledge fulfilled. That is what this scripture speaks to. The Word of God only points us to that which is perfect. Someone in this discussion made refernce to the scripture that states that the Word of God is for the means of sharpening, guiding, preparing us all so that we can be prepared we will only be completed in Christ.
My Experiences. All the experiences that I have had in this walk with the Lord has always been explained in the scriptures, and supported by the scriptures and Testimonials about ones walk in the Lord should be shared (not Bragged about and I never Brag about my own because I know I do not deserve them) but they should be shared and persons should be encouraged to share their testimonies. The Lord has saved me and delivered me from all kinds of trials and tribulations and I will not allow anyone to try and get me to be silent about what the Lord has done or reveals to me. Once again I say that all experiences and revelations in Christ are confirmed in Scripture. If it is not confirmed in the scriptures then it is a personal thing that came from your mind not God. So I do not count all revelations and all experiences only the ones that can be confirmed in the scriptures and this includes Tongues and prophecies, Word of knowledge, Messages about healings and deliverance, once it is confirmed in the scriptures.
Last edited by Delivered; Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:50 PM.
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CovenantInBlood:
And according to the Scripture, He does so THROUGH THE PREACHING OF THE WORD, as Paul outlines in Rom. 10. God Himself has so revealed and so chosen this method of salvation. No one will be saved apart from the Gospel. So if someone today never hears the Gospel, it is evident that he is reprobate and he will be condemned to hell.
Anyone who does not accept the scriptures is condemned to Hell, this is what Paul said beginning from Romans 10:9 through to verse 21. Verse 14 saying that the only way to hear is if it is through a preacher (a heralder so to speak , of Divine Truth) Verse 15 Saying how can they preach except that they be sent. Who does the sending? Is it God? I think that God does the sending and the Holy SPirit moves upon the person sent.
The Holy Spirit can and does tell of the things of God, Divine things. Is He not a preacher?
On the Road to Damascus in Acts 9:2-6 was Saul already walking in the Truth when God spoke to Him? What did He hear was it not a direct communication from God?
Last edited by Delivered; Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:22 PM.
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Persnickety Presbyterian |
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Delivered said:
Dealing with the latter part first. When Christ comes again as you say and I agree, our hope will become reality and our faith will become sight. So I believe that the scripture in 1 Corinthians 13 speaks to the coming of Christ so What we know in part will be completed. That is my belief from this Scripture. Our theology says that it is the word that is the perfect thing that is being reffered to. I say that the WOrd is perfect. However this passage in 1 Corinthians 13 is speaking of the coming of Jesus and that is finality the completed thing. Then you will have to explain why faith and hope abide in contrast to prophecy, tongues, and knowledge. Also the "Tongues" in the 1 verse of this chapter is the same recurring through the entire chapter and the verse itself refers to the tongues of men and of angels. The Tongue here being a Language that is spoken by men and men speaking the Language of Angels and further down in the scripture at verse 8 saying clearly that this will cease along with prophecy (Shall fail=Abolish, cease do away). I believe this too because it is scripture. And can you show me anywhere in the Bible where angels do not speak in the same tongues in which men speak? "That which is perfect" =Of Full Age, completeness) Colossians 2:10 "And you are complete in Him (Christ) which is the Head of All Principality and Power. The next verse in 1 Corinthians 13, verse 11 speaks to growing up coming of Age and being completed and the only time that will happen my brother is when Christ comes and we are complete in Him. All questions anwered, all knowledge fulfilled. That is what this scripture speaks to. The Word of God only points us to that which is perfect. Someone in this discussion made refernce to the scripture that states that the Word of God is for the means of sharpening, guiding, preparing us all so that we can be prepared we will only be completed in Christ. That's NOT what the text is referring to. The text is discussing partial, incomplete revelation. The Bible is the completion of revelation. My Experiences. All the experiences that I have had in this walk with the Lord has always been explained in the scriptures, and supported by the scriptures and Testimonials about ones walk in the Lord should be shared (not Bragged about and I never Brag about my own because I know I do not deserve them) but they should be shared and persons should be encouraged to share their testimonies. The Lord has saved me and delivered me from all kinds of trials and tribulations and I will not allow anyone to try and get me to be silent about what the Lord has done or reveals to me. Once again I say that all experiences and revelations in Christ are confirmed in Scripture. If it is not confirmed in the scriptures then it is a personal thing that came from your mind not God. So I do not count all revelations and all experiences only the ones that can be confirmed in the scriptures and this includes Tongues and prophecies, Word of knowledge, Messages about healings and deliverance, once it is confirmed in the scriptures. You haven't shown that modern-day charismatic gifts are confirmed in Scripture.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Delivered said:
Anyone who does not accept the scriptures is condemned to Hell, this is what Paul said beginning from Romans 10:9 through to verse 21. Verse 14 saying that the only way to hear is if it is through and the Holy SPirit moves upon the person sent. a preacher (a heralder so to speak , of Divine Truth) Verse 15 Saying how can they preach except that they be sent. Who does the sending? Is it God? I think that God does the sending God does the sending, and the Spirit does the preaching THROUGH MEN. The prophets and the apostles and all preachers are sent forth by God in the strength of the Spirit. There is absolutely not a hint that people are saved without hearing the Gospel preached or reading the Scripture. The Holy Spirit can and does tell of the things of God, Divine things. Is He not a preacher?
On the Road to Damascus in Acts 9:2-6 was Saul already walking in the Truth when God spoke to Him? What did He hear was it not a direct communication from God? You cannot use Paul as an example, here. First of all, Paul didn't encounter the Holy Spirit on the Road to Damascus, but the Risen Lord Christ. Second, Paul was appointed an Apostle, by which the Spirit revealed things to and through him. We are not apostles.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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I think that you have not proven that the text in 1 Cor:13 says that the Bible is "that which is perfect" and the entire chapter deals with the topic of Love. It shows that love is so important that everything else is unprofitable without it. The scripture ends in speaking about a transition from inexperienced to experienced. It is more likely that the scriptures in Colossians 1:28, 2Timothy 3:17, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrew 7:19, Hebrews 13:7, Speaks of a state of perfection in Christ and support the premise being discussed in this chapter. A transition into the state of perfection. Being face to face with Christ. Until that comes then I dont think that we can be so snug in our knowledge of the things of God.
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that now in 2005 or the years leading up to it we have no more need for revelations and private communication with God through whatever Tongues He chooses.
How many of us are running out there taking care of those in need? Speaking to those outside of our closed groups? Literally taking the Gospel to all we come in contact with? If we have that which is perfect how is it that some read the Bible and still need someone else to interpret it? The Bible is the Perfect inspired Word of God. Without a doubt. But the text cannot possibly be refering to the Bible as we have not yet achieved that state of perfection where we can just read it and have a full understanding of all things contained in it and we certainly do not stick to what is written therein.
Without the movement of the Holy Spirit, without dialogue with the Holy Spirit, without the intervention of the Holy Spirit even in our Prayers (1 Cor 14:14-15, Romans 8:26) Tongues and Prophecy are necessary to the bringing of information that we need in our daily walk and they are as necessary as any other spiritual gift all for the edification of the Church of Jesus Christ. Chapter 12 describes the gifts and verse 11 of Chapter 12 states that it is the Holy Spirit that determines who gets what. Verses 25 through to 28 speaks of the importance of these diverse gifts. Verse 31 leading into Chapter 13 showing a more excellent state to pursue. The end of chapter 13 speaking to greatest thing when compared to those listed, love. We know in part and we prophesy in part. To say that we now have that which is perfect is to say that you now know all things in full. Do you know all things in full? I dont!
You ask about finding a place in the Bible that says that the Angels speak in a different Language than men, it should interest you to know that the Scripture in 1 Cor 13 begins by diferentiating Tongues (Language) of men separate from Angels. I know that you cannot mean that.
I believe that these texts discussed provide a support for the theme discussed in Corinthians than your lack of providing a scripture that states that the Bible is the perfect thing referred to in the text, therefore proving your point that we are currently living in a dispensation where prophecy and tongues have ended. Chapter 14 begins by encouraging believers to desire spiritual gifts especially prophecy, and many still do today however your theology maintains a premise that it cannot prove nor support within the pages of the scriptures. If your theology is true then whole chapters in the new testament of the bible have no bearing on our walk when in fact the scriptures teach that all of it is for our growth and transition into that perfect man in Christ.
Last edited by Delivered; Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:06 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040
Persnickety Presbyterian |
Persnickety Presbyterian Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,040 |
Delivered said:
I think that you have not proven that the text in 1 Cor:13 says that the Bible is "that which is perfect" and the entire chapter deals with the topic of Love. It shows that love is so important that everything else is unprofitable without it. The scripture ends in speaking about a transition from inexperienced to experienced. It is more likely that the scriptures in Colossians 1:28, 2Timothy 3:17, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrew 7:19, Hebrews 13:7, Speaks of a state of perfection in Christ and support the premise being discussed in this chapter. A transition into the state of perfection. Being face to face with Christ. Until that comes then I dont think that we can be so snug in our knowledge of the things of God. You completely ignored my question about the abiding nature of faith and hope in v. 13. How do faith and hope abide when Christ has returned? Besides which, what is it that makes the man "complete" in your citation of II Tim. 3:17? None other than SCRIPTURE, per v. 16 of the same chapter. Nevertheless, there are plenty of other reasons to reject your notion that the charismatic gifts are continuing. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that now in 2005 or the years leading up to it we have no more need for revelations and private communication with God through whatever Tongues He chooses. Nowhere does it state that we DO have such a need. In fact, to imagine that we need revelation still after the Bible has been completed undermines the authority of the Bible and leaves us ever waiting for further and further information about God's purposes. The Bible reveals all we need to know of God's purposes and all we need to know of doctrine. Furthermore, there is not such thing as a private prayer language. Such an idea is based on a faulty understanding of I Cor. 14, where Paul is explicit in making the point that tongues are for the edification of the entire church and for a sign to unbelievers. The notion of a private prayer language is utterly contradictory to Paul's point. How many of us are running out there taking care of those in need? Speaking to those outside of our closed groups? Literally taking the Gospel to all we come in contact with? If we have that which is perfect how is it that some read the Bible and still need someone else to interpret it? The Bible is the Perfect inspired Word of God. Without a doubt. But the text cannot possibly be refering to the Bible as we have not yet achieved that state of perfection where we can just read it and have a full understanding of all things contained in it and we certainly do not stick to what is written therein. Where do you get the idea that this "state of perfection" you describe it what I'm talking about? The Bible contains all we need to know. It is indeed perfect and by paying it heed we attain to maturity in the faith. Without the movement of the Holy Spirit, without dialogue with the Holy Spirit, without the intervention of the Holy Spirit even in our Prayers (1 Cor 14:14-15, Romans 8:26) Tongues and Prophecy are necessary to the bringing of information that we need in our daily walk and they are as necessary as any other spiritual gift all for the edification of the Church of Jesus Christ. I Cor. 14::14–15 has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit intervening, but is part of Paul's criticism of the misuse of tongues by the Corinthians. And clearly Rom. 8:26 is not talking about tongues. It says, "but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words"! Tongues and prophecy are NOT necessary in our daily walk precisely because the completed Bible contains the WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD. What possibly can tongues and prophecy reveal to us about God's plan that is not in the Bible?? Chapter 12 describes the gifts and verse 11 of Chapter 12 states that it is the Holy Spirit that determines who gets what. Verses 25 through to 28 speaks of the importance of these diverse gifts. Verse 31 leading into Chapter 13 showing a more excellent state to pursue. The end of chapter 13 speaking to greatest thing when compared to those listed, love. We know in part and we prophesy in part. To say that we now have that which is perfect is to say that you now know all things in full. Do you know all things in full? I dont! I can know all I need to know of God's will through the Bible. You ask about finding a place in the Bible that says that the Angels speak in a different Language than men, it should interest you to know that the Scripture in 1 Cor 13 begins by diferentiating Tongues (Language) of men separate from Angels. I know that you cannot mean that. It says, "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels." It does not say, "Angels speak different tongues than men." The whole text here is speaking in superlatives. When angels speak, they speak perfectly. That's all Paul is doing here, is describing the best of a spiritual gift one can have, and saying that even the very best is nothing compared to love. But even then, with every instance of an angel speaking in Scripture, it is ALWAYS in a language that men can understand. I Cor. 13:1 affords absolutely no evidence that modern "tongues" are some unknown, heavenly language. I believe that these texts discussed provide a support for the theme discussed in Corinthians than your lack of providing a scripture that states that the Bible is the perfect thing referred to in the text, therefore proving your point that we are currently living in a dispensation where prophecy and tongues have ended. Chapter 14 begins by encouraging believers to desire spiritual gifts especially prophecy, and many still do today however your theology maintains a premise that it cannot prove nor support within the pages of the scriptures. If your theology is true then whole chapters in the new testament of the bible have no bearing on our walk when in fact the scriptures teach that all of it is for our growth and transition into that perfect man in Christ. So, am I to suppose on this basis that all of the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament are still in effect, because according to you, if they have ceased then the Scripture is violated which says that "all of it is for our growth and transition into that perfect man in Christ"? It doesn't have to be in effect today for it to be beneficial to our growth to study!
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49
Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,893 Likes: 49 |
I don't understand the connection between the Charismatic gifts and whether or not someone can be saved apart from the proclamation of the Gospel.
I think the Bible is clear that the Gospel is the means God uses to reach and save His elect. (Rom.1:16)
If I am not mistaken, we have in the past discussed this issue, in a thread that talked about Billy Graham and his interview by Robert Schuller.
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