The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Trinity Doctrine

SemperReformda,

Well Christ is infallible, as he is Lord. But I'm very fallible. I do believe he speaks to us, nonetheless. He said for us to ask Him, and you will receive. I believe He speaks to us through the Holy Spirit, and leads us to understanding as we ask and search. That's what I believe. I don't hear an audible voice; not like that. But an insight; for instance, bringing to light our own sin... or something we normally would choose to ignore and not deal with, so we can repent of it.

His word is infallible; He promised the individual believer the Holy Spirit. And also, teachers... I do believe in the value of teachers. I do. I also believe we need to test what is taught, to the best of our abilities, to be true or false. And I believe the Holy Spirit helps us to discern the difference. And certain things, like Faith and Grace cannot be taught.

Tom,

Concerning my replies... these posts are threaded and break up the conversation. I'm trying for succinct, below (you may disagree!)

May I say this to you? I opened up a can of worms with this topic. Tom, I admit and agree that we need to be able to explain ourselves, on this topic of the Trinity. I was wrong to say what I did. It comes down to what is the true biblical understanding... of the short hand word ‘trinity’ or ‘tri-une.’ I also want to suggest that this shorthand word might be missing the point.

Here’s the list I’m coming up with... where I’m at. I’m not asking for you to answer, I need to personally look into. “Why I’m studying/questioning the Trinity doctrine, and seeking the proper scriptural understanding of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:”


1. Trinitarian means different things to different people. AND I need to know more about the history/roots of the doctrine, etc.
2. Christians are accused of not worshipping one God. Distinct comparisons with pagan trinities are brought up. Babylonian/Gnostic influences have always been there for the early Church.... Roman Catholicism. Which I can’t help BUT look at. I need to know more.
3. I have to understand why some Christians who believe the same as I do reject ‘the Trinity’, but quote the same verses that Pilgrim posted, for the same reasons, in the same way. And why some people who believe in the Trinity quote the same verses in the same context. And I’m baffled. IT MAKES ME THINK, THAT FOR AS MUCH AS THE 'TRINITY' DOCTRINE AIMED TO CLEAR THINGS UP... MAYBE IT HASN'T.
4. I have a problem with authority. Which I stated in my posts to you and Pilgrim, and why.
5. Alignment of whom I consider enemies of Christ... are targeting non-Trinitarians/ Post-Trib/Non-Dispensationalists.

I believe in basic Christian truth/doctrine. (yes, I said doctrine,) I’m not any sect, or JW, or cult follower. I’m a fundamentalist believer in Jesus Christ. My issues I recapped above. I do appreciate your comments and replies. I’m not looking for the answers to the above recap in this forum... Because alot of the sources to explore further would not be here. Unless you wish to comment. It’s just a recap.


-Kathy

Here are 2 documents that I plan to study

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/trinhistory.htm
The Development of the Doctrine of the Trinity


http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/ugstsymposium.htm

Avoiding the Achilles Heels of Trinitarianism, Modalistic Monarchianism, and Nestorianism: The Acknowledgement and Proper Placement of the Distinction Between Father and Son

Paul,

Thank you for the article. I let the topic rest awhile, due to a headache!

I do agree with all of you... We have to be able to say what we believe, explain... and it is a cop-out for me to just say "I'll just quote the Word on this" "and you can guess what I mean." It's a big stubborness on my part, because of my skepticism in general, on the history of the document, and authority issues. My desire is of course, the proper biblical truth. I need to know more of the History, etc of the 'Trinity doctrine' and related studies. I stated that I believe that God reveals who He is through Scripture by the Holy Spirit. I do believe and trust that also to be the case. SO, we do the best with what others have written and taught, I look at Who these teachers, etc. are... what else they say - whether or not it's in line with what I can best discern to be true, or have already. I consider the Word, I pray for guidance.

Thank you,
-Kathy

Here are 2 documents: One I plan to read, another re-read. I mentioned these to Tom as well.

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/trinhistory.htm
The Development of the Doctrine of the Trinity

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/ugstsymposium.htm

Avoiding the Achilles Heels of Trinitarianism, Modalistic Monarchianism, and Nestorianism: The Acknowledgement and Proper Placement of the Distinction Between Father and Son

Kathy,

It's fine that you don't know who Harold Camping is...some of your terminology about leaving the church seemed very similar to his own.

I will leave an exposition of the disastrous ramifications of Oneness Theology to others who have more time than I at present.


Has it crossed your mind that, with respect to your obsession with the supposed "Noahide Laws" conspiracy--and I am confident that the multitudes of now-glad martyrs from Abel through Zechariah through those under the Caesars, the muslims, the Inquisition, Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, in Uganda, Afghanistan, the Sudan, China, and everywhere between, would agree that it is your obsession--has it occurred to you that you yourself may be ... " uninspired or for some reason resistant... or duped"?

Paul,

I DON’T CONDONE THE ARTICLES I POSTED AS MY BELIEF. I listed them as articles I plan on reading to compare what has been written concerning Trinitarian belief. I am not a One-ness Pentecostal.

You may say what you do regarding my obsession with a conspiracy... and I say you do not know enough to make that claim... I mean – you are welcome to make it; I disagree (not just I.) The attitudes are so biased concerning, I’m not able to say more. There are inspired others, all whose words are deemed as non-credible and soon illegal... which is certainly a way of winning a debate.

-Kathy

Kathy,

Glad to hear it. As I said before, I will leave it to others with more time to tear down the fallacious interpretations presented in those papers. Let me give you instead 2 sufficient reasons for not attempting to glean any helpful instruction from them:

1) The concept of "simplicity". Although refutation of errant doctrines can require complex expression, and while eternity is not long enough to plumb the depths of truth, yet all essential revealed truth about God is able to be positively expressed in a few concise sentences, simple enough for a child to comprehend:

What is God? God is a spirit, and has not a body like men.
How many Gods are there? One.
In how many persons does this One God subsist? Three.
Who are they? The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Oneness articles are so complex that they could never be explaining biblical truth.

2) The 2nd commandment. The articles, in an attempt to simplify the complexity, resort to drawings presuming to illustrate the nature of the Godhead. If you believe Jesus as your ultimate authority, you will know that no image can communicate truth about God.

I suppose that's just what I would tell you if you, and hosts of others, refused to listen when I told you that there are at this moment giant earthworms, hundreds of feet long, burrowing deep in the bedrock below all the major US cities! I hear them every night! Others hear them too! When they come to the surface, any day now, they will devour all in their path! Nothing will be left! Many are acting as though they don't exist, but they have all been duped! You can feel the ground shake at my house, and I know you can feel it at yours! We are all doomed!

Enough foolishness. I pray that your eyes will be opened to discern between that which is true and eternal, and that which is foolish and passing away. Until you are willing to listen to those wiser than yourself, further discourse seems unprofitable.

Paul,

I mentioned Acts 15 to you, concerning the dispute that was arising in the early church about whether or not Gentiles should be yoked with the law, vs. Grace. Note that your namesake, Paul... was not happy. If you were to do a simple search on Acts 15 concerning the topic that I brought up, you would find a multitude of Christian and Messianic articles on how relevant Acts 15 is today. The other Paul should be here to see this.

-Kathy

Paul,

If anyone wishes to address the article with the long title Achilles Heel... I’ll certainly be interested. Yet, I have seen counter info... and your statement about simplicity is I think, very wise. I did open up the can of worms. And it is so ironic in your last comment that you moved on to giant earthworms... and I wonder if this was luck on your part?

Paul, at least will you (please) look at Acts 15 and trends within the Church in re-interpreting the very issues... pertaining to the Giant Earthworms that I know for a fact exist? In this regard, I think the topic is relevant. That is my opinion. The reason I said you don’t know enough to make that claim... is because I don’t believe you have looked because you are biased... every bit as I am. Is that possible? I do listen, to many who are wiser than me, and compare things to a fault... and concerning the trinity doctrine... open up a can of worms... and realize I’m confused on what my issue really is... trip on my logic... and then say so publicly. Thank you for listening and your replies.

-Kathy

Kathy


Yes I realize that Trinitarian means different things to different people. But then again that really is not what is important. What is important is what the word really means. If that isn't understood, then the foundation of our understanding is faulty.
In your case, if you really want to know what the word “Trinity” really means, then all you need to do is re-read some of these posts; it has been explained and supported by Scripture on more than one occasion.
If we can't agree on the real meaning of the doctrine of the Trinity, then further discussion is futile.


Should this really surprise you? Most of the arguments I have seen by critics of the Trinity are based on either ignorance of the doctrine itself, or down right lies.
I will even admit that in some cases ignorance of the doctrine is spread by well meaning Christians who don't really understand the doctrine enough to explain it.


This one I have already dealt with a bit in number 2.
If someone has a false understanding of a doctrine, whether it is the Trinity, or the Atonement etc..., chances are they will think it is not biblical.
Sometimes this can be the fault of preachers and teachers themselves; many pastors do a horrible job at teaching doctrine period. In the past (not that some don’t), Churches tried to make sure all members understood doctrine, by using things like the Confessions as well a Catechisms.
An example of this can be found here
This is something that I have been trying to get implemented in my own Church, so far with little success.
There is another possibility; many people who call themselves “Christian” is actuality are not Christian at all. Whether they are JW, Oneness, or any other non-orthodox religion, they all claim to be Christians, but obviously only one can really represent true Christianity.
The Trinity is an essential doctrine of the Church, and if we are wrong in this. Then I am afraid the consequences of this are devastating. It would mean all people who believe in the Trinity are still dead in their sins.

You are in a sense correct that “THAT FOR AS MUCH AS THE 'TRINITY' DOCTRINE AIMED TO CLEAR THINGS UP... MAYBE IT HASN'T.”
But again this isn’t the fault of the doctrine itself; it has more to do with the proper teaching on the subject. But this is not something that is unique to the doctrine of the Trinity.


We are all called to use discernment and this case is no different. But if you don’t start trusting someone, you will never know the answer. In fact I doubt that you will find a TRUE Christian Church that you will trust.
It also can not be stressed enough the importance of hermeneutics (the science of interpretation) is when trying to understand Scripture. If we fail to understand the basic laws of interpretation when approaching Scripture, chances are we are going to get a wrong idea of what the author is trying to convey.
I believe there are several articles on hermeneutics on the Highway, I am too tired at the moment to look for you, perhaps someone will post one for you, and/or explain this aspect a little more.


I know you have a problem with Roman Catholicism; I share many of your concerns.
However, a few things need to be said.
Not everything that Roman Catholics believe is unbiblical. As has been said before, the doctrine of the Trinity is a doctrine that can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt by the Scriptures themselves. Every doctrine should be considered on its own merits, not who believes it.
For example, on the issue of abortion, there are many non-Christians, or even Catholics that believe abortion is wrong. Should that mean that we as Christians should be pro-choice?

I thought I better mention something about the URLs you posted.
I realize you said that you are not Oneness Pentecostal, but it is very evident that URLs are both Oneness sources.
I have had my share of discussions with those who are Oneness Pentecostals and I can tell you from experience that they can look at the same Scripture verses that I look at and come to different conclusions, simply because we use different hermeneutical principles.
As far as history goes, since admittedly I am not an expert on that subject, I will defer that issue to someone else who may want to comment on it.
I thought I would also let you know I had a friend once got caught up with Oneness Pentecostals and though by the grace of God he was rescued, his scars remain with him until this day.
So my advice to you is not to look into their claims, until at least you are equipped to handle it. At this time, I do not believe you are, this is not a criticism of you, it is just a warning from someone who cares.


I could say a lot more about these, but I will leave it there for now.

While reading I had found (Godhead )used in Act 17:29 and Colossians 2:9, in the King James, but the ESV does not, why would they change this?
Anybody know ?

neicey

The term 'to theios', what is translated as Godhead is an adjective employed as a noun its meaning can also be translated as divine, as in the nature of God. You see theios alone used in 2 Peter 1:3-4 when Peter refers to the divine power and divine nature

And what is it that makes us complete, equipped for every good work? What is that whch is able to give us the wisdom that leads us to salvation through faith? What is tht which is sufficient for everything pertaining to life and godliness? What is that which God has magnified according to His name?

Do you believe God loves you? And if you do, why do you believe He does? Thank you.

Hi, not disagreeing with you or anything. Just a thought. I was reading 2 Tim. 3:16 and wondered what you thought about didaskalian (teaching, doctrine). When Paul was writing this and he said that the Scriptures were profitable for making doctrine, he wasn't thinking that we wouldn't do so was he? I mean if he said we had a basis for making a doctrine, then he expected us to formulate propositional truth outside of Scripture, but based upon it. I admit that I have not followed all of the thread here, but it seems logical to me that Paul wrote that we should have teaching,doctrine that is not Scipture, but that is certainly Scriptural. Councils and confessions are just doing what Paul expected and told them to do!

If this is way off, sorry, I'm tired. It is more a response in line with yours to "Kathy."

Kathy,

It being decidedly off-topic to prolong discussion of your current obsession in this thread about the Trinity, I offer a final word. Your making judgments about my motivation ("I don’t believe you have looked because you are biased") may or may not be accurate--the Lord will judge--but seems highly unwise to do based on the limited interchanges we have had. In fact, it seems exactly the kind of statement one expects from someone who is ... obsessed over a non-entity. Some of the following thoughts really belong in your other thread, but I offer them here since it seems that your obsession is driving you from biblical truth about the nature of God, and because you did not seem to engage any of the concerns addressed to you in the other thread, beyond re-stating various forms of:
I think it's pretty clear what's taking place as well. I can hear those old giant worms gnawing away as I write, and you could too if you would only listen, and were not so biased. Revelations told me so, too! ... the dragon, that old serpent ... which in Old English is the worm ... and chief among them is ... you worm Jacob ... and we all know who the Bible means by "Jacob". I guess my obsession isn't much different than yours, now, is it?

The Giant Earthworms, for any who haven't figured it out, represent a horrible, lurking, conspiratorial danger in the mind of a select few who are wise enough to sense their presence, but which are ignored (due to their non-existence!) by the rest of humanity. Their "existence" offers several advantages to the "wise few":

1) the Giant Earhworms always represent imminent threats, yet since no specific timetable is given for their appearance, they simply cannot be disproved, but merely twisted into more fantastic shapes as time passes. The "wise few" well know that with the fulfillment of OT civil law in Christ they are no longer subject to the temporal judicial treatment of false prophets, and they make full use of the privilege.

2) pieces of truth about the Giant Earthworms really do exist; there are real worms burrowing at this moment in my backyard; there are documents about your obsession that have been written by both esteemed and insane people, and those in-between. You mentioned lots of references. Guess what, Kathy? This is "the internet era"? A search for references to my church of 20 families gets 490 hits; a search for "giant earthworm" gets 1820 hits; "nostradamus" gets 804,000. The problem is, where do those scattered pieces of truth fit into the present, Biblical reality of Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of His Father, subduing His enemies (and those of His people) under His feet, preparing His bride, in preparation for His return? You are looking at the world upside down by your obsession, in so doing, diminishing the reign of the Lord. BTW, on-topic, notice the Trinitarian language there: if there is no Trinity, is Jesus sitting ... at His own right hand?

3) the "wise few" share with the gnostics the intense satisfaction of having "discovered" secret knowledge which was hidden from the "ignorant, duped many". This self-satisfaction poses a real spiritual threat to pride when the non-initiate world refuses to listen, and can be a real motivation for choosing to be deceived.

4) by obsessing over the "Giant Earthworms", the very real, far greater dangers of life become increasingly overlooked. "Guard your life and your doctrine closely", Paul warns Timothy, in context of avoiding myths and godless chatter. Kathy, let me ask a blunt, rhetorical question: Has your pursuit of your obsession enabled you to better love God and your neighbor, according to His commands (some of which commands, by the way, are actually included in the infamous list of laws you posted!)? Your musings in this current thread have caused me--maybe others--to feel that your understanding of a basic Christian teaching, simple enough for a child to articulate, is on such shaky ground that you seem ill-equipped to interpret other issues.

Several closing comments about the details of your obsession (staff, have mercy for being off-topic; this will be my last word on the subject here).

1) You greatly misinterpret Acts 15, by failing to take its context into account. The Jerusalem Council addressed an issue WITHIN THE CHURCH ONLY! Paul was most emphatically not concerned about the persecution of believers by unbelieving Jews, but rather the temptation to adulterate the purity of Gospel faith by requiring Gentiles to observe a legitimate ceremonial function. To imply otherwise as you have done draws totally unwarranted conclusions from the sacred text.

2) Throughout much of the New Testament, using rough figures, the non-Christian Jewish community outnumbered the total Christian community by perhaps a factor of 100 to 1; now that ratio is roughly inverted. If anyone were to be concerned about Jews killing Christians, it should have been the apostles; it did occur in isolated incidents, as Paul well knew, yet was restrained by the hand of the Lord; yet they found comfort in the blessedness of being persecuted for their Lord. Paul tells the Thessalonians that God's wrath was being to be completely poured out on the Jews for that early persecution. Nowhere does he speak of more to follow.

3) The apostles do not seem to have received much revelation about: but you apparently have. Wonder where, or rather who, that "revelation" is coming from?

4) do you fail to see the irony in the historical fact that one of the most recent obsessions with domination (by the same people you fear), in the 1930's and 1940's in the heart of Europe, those who saw the rest of the world as uninspired or for some reason resistant... or duped are now universally, rightly judged to have been willingly deceived?

5) finally, where is Christ in all of this? It seems like some people want their words and lives to be increasingly about "Christ, and Him crucified", while others would rather talk only about ... Giant Earthworms.

Oh no! One just broke out of the ground! It's coming across the backyard! It's coming up the back steps! It just ate up the back door! I'll put jello on the floor so it'll slip*! It ate up all the jello! It's coming in my office! Now it's got my foot! Now it's got my ........................






* apologies to Bill Cosby, "Chicken Heart", 1966