The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Trinity - Essential Doctrine # 1

I have been talking to someone lately about the Trinity. Even though I have tried to explain the Trinity to him, he still is not sure if he believes in the Trinity.
I was thinking of a way to help him, but it occurred to me that another angle might be the way to go.
What I am referring to is the importance of believing in the one true God and making sure we are a part of the true Church. (I had trouble with the last sentence)

I believe (and I am probably preaching to the choir, on this forum) that it is essential that you believe that He (God) is a rewarder to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11).
This does not of course mean that we believe in a god and leave it at that, for the first commandment condemns those who have other gods other than the one true God.
Christians believe that the one true God is Trinity (one in essence, three in person). If the one true God is not "Trinity", then it stands to reason that those who believe in the Trinity do not believe in the one true God.
This has far reaching consequences, because even if it was possible to have every other Bible doctrine correct, it wouldn't really matter, since they would not be able to direct what they have learned to the one true God.

Do you believe that this is a good angle to approach this person with?

Also, if you can add something, or even disagree with something I said. By all means do so.

Tom

Tom,

As is typical.... I have to ask if you have READ this article on The Highway:

1) The Divine Trinity, by Herman Bavinck

In His grace,

Pilgrim

Good article, I never read that particular article before, but I have read many articles on the Trinity before.

But I am quite sure why you said:

Tom

Tom a suggestion would be to tell him that he is lost and without Christ and on his way to Hell then tell him what great things the Lord has done in you and for you! I’ll pray for ya.


[color:"0000FF"]"Go home to thy friends and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee" (Mark 5:19).[/color]

Tom,

Here's a couple of quotes on the subject of the Trinity worthy of pondering.







Wes <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

I definitely will not be taking that tactic.
But if you look at what I said (it will not be exactly like that, I will be adding some thing such as Wes's quotes), though it doesn't stand out as much as what you said, it certainly implies it.
Yet, it does it in a way that causes him to think about the matter. If I did what you said being he is about 6'3" & 300 pounds, I may end up in the hospital <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bif.gif" alt="" />

All that aside, he considers himself to be a Christian, who is quite active in his Church and believes the Lord has done great things in his life.
So telling him what the Lord has done in my life is not the way to go.

Tom

The bigger they are the harder they fall, and... just incase he doesn't you can probably out run him. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/flee.gif" alt="" />


Wes

Wes

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am sure I could out run him. I don't actually think he would hit me, because he is a nice guy and long time friend (I was surprised to hear this from him).
But in case you missed my point, what William suggested is an almost certain conversation stopper.
While I want to make certain that he understands the importance of the matter, if someone said what William said to me, I would turn him off.

Tom

Ah yes... we can't risk offending anyone with the truth now, can we? Just how far are you willing to go, Tom, to "keep the conversation going"? Although I find William's suggestion, if he was totally serious, a bit strong, he has an excellent point. Personally, I would not hesitate to make clear that to deny the Trinity is to put oneself outside of historic Christianity, regardless of what else one may believe. How can one have the Holy Spirit dwelling within but deny His very nature and/or existence, and yet insist that they are Christians and united to Christ? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Pilgrim

I thought I made myself clear that I am not afraid to say the truth. In fact, unless he is a complete idiot (he isn't) he should understand the implications of what I am saying. To deny the Trinity, is to deny what I believe is the number one essential doctrine in Christianity.
If the Trinity is not the true representation of the one true God, then every Trinitarian is still lost in their sin.

I just sent an e-mail to my friend this morning and it included some of the quotes (such as the one by Boettner) that Wes had in his post.

Tom

Ps
If you find this to be inadequate, please be more specific.

Yes, I think that is inadequate. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> It is disputable whether or not IF the doctrine of the Trinity is not biblical nor essential to the faith then "every Trinitarian is still lost in their sin". For to establish this supposition, then it must be proved that Trinitarianism is gross heresy; which is the opposite of what Trinitarians submit, that to deny the Trinity is gross heresy.

Secondly, IMHO, even if this were true, which I deny it is, it still doesn't deal with the real issue. That issue is, to deny the Trinity is to deny biblical Christianity and thus any profession made upon that basis is spurious and thus the one making such a profession is liable to judgment and has not been genuinely converted. (cf. The Athanasian Creed: "This is the catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.")

To tell a non-Christian that they are not as good as they should be is a far cry from telling them the TRUTH, i.e., that in their current state, they stink in the nostrils of Almighty God and without the grace of regeneration, repentance and believing wholly upon the Lord Christ they shall surely perish, living forever in eternal torment. Surely the Lord Jesus spoke many things to people which broke off further communication with them. (Jh 6:65, 66; 8:40-45) Yet, He never shrunk back from "telling it like it is". And the Apostle Paul testified of himself likewise. (Acts 20:27)

In His grace,

Pilgrim

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" /> I am confused at why you would say
I think we can both agree that as you put it:
(I had a hard time writing what you are about to read, in a way that got my points across, so if you are not completely sure what I mean, please say so, thanks.)

However since we are talking about such an important matter of the faith, if we are wrong (we are not) and say the JWs have the correct biblical view of God. Then would it not stand to reason that you and I and every Trinitarian is still dead in their sins?
This is something that JWs would whole heartedly say, because they know that the Trinity is a different God than they believe in.
JWs and Trinitarians can not both be correct about God, one of them is wrong and still dead in their sins.
So if that is true, then how could it be disputable that if the one True God is not "Trinity", that all Trinitarians are dead in their sins?

You said:
I have read what I wrote over and over again, and for the life of me I can not think of how you are given the impression that I have told a non-Christian that they are not as good as they should be.
In fact I told him (among other things) that the "Trinity" is the number one essential doctrine of the Christian faith.
I believe he knows that if something is essential, to not believe in it, is to deny an essential teaching of the Bible and thus is not a Christian.
I take it however from his and my conversations, that he is not aware that the Trinity is an essential doctrine.

Therefore with the hope to get him to understand the importance of the matter, I explained this matter to him with out being overly blunt, but still showing what I think should be obvious.
If I get a response back (no responce yet) and I believe a more direct approach is needed (aka. he is not a true Christian), I will not hesitate to use a more direct approach, unless I am given the impression that I am wasting my words.

In my last post I told you that I included quotes from Wes's post such as Boettner.
Here is one in particular:

If you ask me, by including that quote I don't think I was shinking back from telling it like it is.


Tom

I am happy to report, that it appears that my friend's confusion all along had to do with misunderstanding on his part.
Somehow he got the idea that "Trinity" referred to the name of God, rather than the very nature of God.
He says he agrees with the concept behind the Trinity, but he doesn't believe that God's name is Trinity.

I wrote him back and hopefully now he understands the issues better.

Tom

When I wrote about telling an unbeliever that they are not as good as they should be in contrast to telling them the truth in regard to their hopeless and helpless corruption of nature, etc., it was an ANALOGY, Tom, an analogy to point out your dumbed down statements concerning your friends possible spiritual state due to the fact that he denies the doctrine of the Trinity. That's why I also included the last line of the Athanasian Creed which states all so clearly that anyone who denies the doctrine cannot be saved. Granted, there are exceptions to this truth, e.g., a person who is a babe in Christ and who has been confused by heretical teaching and who is asking questions looking for biblical answers because his conscience is bothering him/her terribly after being exposed to error. How this relates to your friend; you judge. But if the man has been a professing Christian for several years, and someone who you have communicated with before, pandering to him for the sake of keeping the communication going isn't something I believe is appropriate. Again..... you can judge that for yourself.

In His grace,

Pilgrim

I am not sure if you noticed my post called I am Happy to Report but it will basically tells you why I approached him in the manner I did.
Although I didn't know that his problem was one of misunderstanding, being as how I didn't know what was causing him not to believe in the Trinity, I didn't feel right about telling him he was not saved, even though I was beginning to suspect it.
As I said in that other post, I hope now his misunderstanding about the Trinity is cleared up.

Tom