The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Doctrine of "H-E-double hockey sticks"

Actually, geomic1 I don't care how other versions translate. The King James say Hell and thats good enough for me.

Indeed, just avoid the answer! Reprobates do not cease to sin when they enter Hell for they have no Redeemer to make them sinless. If they cease not to sin then their punishment MUST continue and thus it will be endless. Annihilationism would be an end to eternal punishment and thus a relief for these reprobates.

I do not have the time to destroy the isogesis of your copy and pasted article. I will state that the Bible speaks of eternal punishment and not Fudge’s or Bacchiocchi (a Seventh-day Adventist) idea of eternal non-existence (Seventh-day Adventists & Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the devil and demons will be annihilated along with evil men). In addition, as a 7th Day Adventist, Bacchiocchi believes that there is no conscious intermediate state, that between death and resurrection the believer does not enjoy a conscious existence in the presence of Christ but "sleeps."

Eternal non-existence conflicts with Scripture and does not take into account the whole counsel of God, which cults are famous for. Look at:

These verses very clearly state that the torment of those in Hell is for ever and ever and it is day and night—in another words it is continuous. There is no mention of an eternal non-existence. Matthew 25:46 is a very interesting verse. It speaks of conscious suffering. Punishment entails suffering; and suffering necessarily entails consciousness. John Gerstner states that "one can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.” The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as our eternal God (Rom 16:26, Heb 9:14, 13:8, and Rev 4:9).

Another sample of this unbiblical isogesis is in your comments;

Here you defend your thesis with Matt 20:28, but fail to understand the meaning and nuances of the Greek word “destroy.” If we compare such passages such as Matt 10:28, Luke 15:4, 8, and 24 we discover a very unique way Greek words are used. In each of these verses the Greek word apollumi (destroy, lost) is used:

The sheep, coin, the son and soul continue to exist even though lost! Thus, when God speaks of “destroying” the soul and body in Hell it is speaking of the continuation of existence in a lost state or ruined state.

Annihilationism is heresy!

Bill,
KJV, may not be the best version to use in respect to the word "Hades" and the possible best meanings. Jim Minkler gives an example:Mt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The gates of Hades: The Roman mythological god in charge of the underworld … or that same old perception of the power of death that has followed man from the very beginning? How do you think our modern “Christian” preachers of hell and damnation would take to the reference of “Pluto” or “Orcus” or even “Hades” or “the grave” or “death”, instead of “hell”? But, of course, we know that our “Christian” version called “Hell” is the only true “Biblical” one, don’t we? I suspect that our modern “Christian” perceptions often cause us to trip over some of the most obvious stuff written in the Bible.

1Cor 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Notice that the KJV conveniently translated the Greek “Hades” in this verse as “grave”. Did God inspire them to translate it differently here or was it a little too obvious that “hell” didn’t fit as well? Consider this verse in view of the one about “the gates of hell”: Death and Hades are sitting side by side here in this statement quoted by the prophet, Hosea (13:14).

J. Edward, so quick to “cast stones”, annihilation may be aberrant, but not heresy. In each point that you have brought up, the annihilationist has made a good argument for their position, which I could go “toe to toe” with you, but having a full time job and 6 kids, it quickly becomes less then a priority. Have you ever really set down and read what the opposite side has written, or do you automatically switch to attack mode? Yes, both Fudge and 7th Day guy have some serious doctrinal issues in regards to “soul sleep” and salvation, but is there any credence for annihilation in the Bible, and after looking at both sides, I would say yes.
Geomic

geomic1,

It isn't a matter of "casting stones" but rather one of not putting a screen door in a submarine. Annihilationism is heresy, pure and simple, for to deny "eternal punishment" is to of necessity to deny "eternal life".

Matthew 25:46 (ASV) "And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life."

In this text, the Lord Christ compares the end of the "goats" (reprobate) from the "sheep" (elect). The telos of the reprobate is eternal (Grk: aionios) punishment but the telos of the elect is eternal (Grk: aionios) life. Thus, using your theory, if the reprobate are eventually annihilated; cease to exist, then the elect must also be annihilated; cease to exist. Otherwise, the text is incomprehensible in regard to the end of men.

Secondly, Annihilationism cannot be bifurcated from the atonement and the punishment suffered by the Lord Christ for the elect. With annihilationism, it would have to be said that 1) His suffering was limited, 2) the resurrection is a myth, for how can one who has been annihilated be resurrected? If Christ suffered the punishment that which was due to the elect, which is identical to that which is due to the reprobate (all mankind), which according to you is limited and then comes obliteration, then that must have been what Christ also experienced; limited punishment and then annihilation. Nowhere in Scripture is such a novel idea entertained.

Lastly, I posted links to 3 articles here: My last reply. Did you bother to read any of them? If so, why not interact with them instead of copy/pasting large sections from a heretical author?

And here is yet another article that totally refutes the heresy of Annihilationism: Do the Flames Ever Stop in Hell?.

In His grace,

Seeing Pilgrim has graciously responded to your words, I merely answer your question:

You indeed are hilarious. To answer your question, YES I have sat down and read what the opposite side has written both while in seminary and out of seminary. From the opposing view I have read, The Righteous Judge by Harold Guillebaud, and Edward Fudge’s book, The Fire that Consumes. Moreover, I have read Stott’s defense and summary of the doctrine in Evangelical Essentials. Have you read the articles here at the Highway yet?

Now for an in-depth analysis of their views and a refutation of what they believe read, Hell on Trail by Robert Peterson. Here is a brief glimpse of how he reveals Fudge’s heresy: The Hermeneutics of Annihilationalism.

Geomic1 before you put Hell and others on trial read the book! Have you ever read about the Second Council of Constantinople in 553 A.D.? It discuses a few heresies that may interest you.

It appears you are ever learning but never coming to a conclusion. Comfort zones and preconceived notions will have to stand the light of day. At some point you will need to find what ground you stand on. Anniliation may sound appealing to those who are perishing but it doesn't come from sound teaching. Why would man have to fear God if Hell was simply annihilation? There is no fear in annihilation, you simply cease to exist.

The fear is in God's judgment in the after life, after death. This scripture tells us that there must be a "fearful" judgment after the death of the body, which the unsaved men of the world should fear. Or as God put it so well (and as annihilationists ignore),

Hebrews 10:31 "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".

The wrath of God is upon them, and it is not to give them what they will want (annihilation) when standing before the fearful God, it is to give them what God's justice demands, and what His Holy Word has declared. The end of the world will bring this final judgment in the wrath of God, and God speaks about how the wicked will be severed from the just and how they will be tormented in the fire.

Matthew 13:41-42 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth".

Screaming and grinding of teeth is the language of people being tormented, not the language of annihilation. We cannot simply ignore all these scriptures simply because it's palatable in today's anti-hell politically correct society to do so. They all tell the same story, and it's not that people simply will be destroyed or made to not exist.

Why would God speak of a place or state of everlasting fire to torment the souls of the unsaved, if the fire was only temporarily as (according to annihilationists) they'd soon be destroyed or made extinct? Why does God speak of the wicked as having two hands to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched if what He really means is that it shall be quenched or that they'll just be there temporarily? Why tell us the fire will never be quenched if this is the case? These ideas are tortuous to the very scriptures they're purporting to be a part of. Not only in Revelation where their worm (maggot) dieth not, but God shows the same picture all through out scripture.

Mark 9:43-46 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off, it is better for Thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched". Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is never quenched". And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".


Wes

Pilgrim,
It is kind of like a vicious cycle, one side presents arguments without considering the possibility of at least some validity from the opposition. Yes, I did read your suggested posts (except for the most recent), I also read the Peterson’s rebuttal to Fudge, bits and pieces of Hodge and a host of others who disagree with annihilation thought. Yet, I do see the legitimate position set forth by the annihilationist, though I may not claim it. An example would be your reference to Mt. 25:46, they would say the punishment is eternal not the punishing. Wes, today brings up several Scripture dealing with unquenchable fire, the worm that doesn’t die and etc, and if he was really listening to the annihilationist he would know that they believe that these types of verses are referring to God being a all consuming fire that never goes out in regards to punishment. Like Gehenna, where the fires of the dump continue to burn, the maggots continue to consume but the objects are (reprobates) destroyed. J. Edwards brings up Scripture in Rev.20:10 and Rev. 14:10-11, which if he really read and understood the annihilationist argument, he would present their view on those verses and argue against, but he doesn’t. They use those verses as proof of their view in respect to Sodom and Gomorrah. Again, sometimes I believe we do miss the obvious, by our long held presuppositions, even in the area of supposed scholarly work.
Geomic

There's more than this passage. You can look at Matt. 25 and see that eternal punishment is paired with eternal life. Unless you want to argue that our eternal life is conscious for a time only, you have to accept the consciousness involved in eternal punishment.

What's "legitimate" about this argument? It's like saying that "the life is eternal but not the living." Does that make any sense at all?

I've read the annihilationist beliefs and have found their arguments don't stand the light of day. Since you keep defending them I presume you've bought their logic.

In your reply above you've described a picture of hell which is like a garbage dump that continues to burn but the objects in the fire are annihilated. That's simply not a biblical view. When all the wicked are annihilated after the first hundred years or so of eternity what objects will there be to burn?

You are right God is like a consuming fire (Heb.12:29), and His righteous condemnation for defying Him and clinging to the sins He loathes will be experienced in hell (Rom.2:6, 8, 9, 12). According to Scripture, hell is unending (Jude 13, Rev.20:10). There is no biblical warrant for speculation about annihilation of the ungodly at some stage.

Rev. 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Rev. 20:15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."


Wes

I do not want to debate about Bible versions here on the highway but why do you think your a greater scholar than the King James translators? Perhaps you know how to use a Strong's concordance or have struggled thru three years of Greek and Hebrew and are now qualified to correct the Book that God has honored for so long. If you've found "mistakes" in the King James Bible can you please correct them all and give us a perfect Bible.

I wasn’t aware that it was my responsibility to make your arguments??? Aren’t you capable??? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

Let’s look at Rev 20:10:

Read their books if you desire exhaustive arguments, however let us see what the heretics account of this verse above. Some Annihilationists insist that being “tormented day and night forever and ever” signifies annihilation (Atkinson, Life and Immortality, page 99-100; Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, page 304, and Guillebaud, The Righteous Judge, page 25-26). Fudge states that “in the case of the beast and false prophet…the lake of fire stands for utter, absolute, irreversible, annihilation” (page 304). They assert that Rev 20:10 has nothing to do with the fate of lost human beings. However, good biblical exegesis demands they are incorrect: (1) Jesus taught that unsaved people suffer the Devil’s fate—Matt 25:41; (2) the verses following this verse depict resurrected human beings thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15). Surprisingly Guillebaud, later (The Righteous Judge, page 44) refutes himself saying that Rev 20:10, “certainly appears” to “teach the everlasting torment of the trinity of evil.” Rev 20:10 clearly reveals that people are judged and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire (compare, Rev 20:14). The lake of fire signifies not extinction in opposition to existence, but torturous existence in the society of evil in opposition to the life in the society of God (paraphrase of Beasley-Murray).

Let’s look at Rev 14:10-11:

Annihilationists (Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, page 300) appeal to the destruction of Babylon in Rev 18:8, 18; 19:3 as proof that annihilation is taught in Rev 14:11. However, their argument fails because Babylon cannot survive the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev 21:17), whereas the damned do survive, as Rev 21:8 and 22:15 bear witness.

In addition, Stott (Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, page 316) claims verse 11 for his side: Annihilationism. He states;

However, Stott stumbles over the simplicity of the nature of fire; that is once the source material has disappeared, there is no more smoke! For smoke to rise forever and ever the substance must burn forever and ever. If Stott and geomic1 would have read the rest of the verse this would have been very clear to them; “and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.” When Annihilationists (The Fire That Consumes, page 300; Atkinson, Life and Immortality, page 109; Guillebaud, The Righteous Judge, page 24 ) assert that John means to say that the wicked have relief so long as their suffering lasts, they evade the plain meaning of the text by reading something into the text that is not there. The imagery in Rev 14 is very clear--that it conveys the eternal conscious torment of the eternally ungodly.

Now as far as Sodom and Gomorrah (S&G). Fudge relates as the citizens of S&G were completely destroyed so shall the citizens of Hell. Fudge’s states, “There is no biblical hint that Sodom and Gomorrah’s inhabitants presently endure conscious torment; several passages, in fact, make a point of their abiding extinction” (The Fire That Consumes, pages 286-287). However, this is much to sweet as it proves more than annihilationists desire to prove—that the inhabitants of those cities were destroyed at death, NEVER to exist again. However, annihilationism holds that the wicked dead will be resurrected to face a judgment prior to their extinction! Once again this theology is found wanting. Jude teaches that God’s judgment of S&G furnishes an earthly temporal example of the final fate of the wicked. Jude means that the still burning site of the cities is a warning picture of the eternal fires of Hell! According to Philo, “even to this day the visible tokens of the indescribable disaster are pointed out in Syria –ruins, cinders, brimstone, smoke and murky flames which continue to rise from the ground as from a fire still smoldering beneath” (JND Kelly, A Commentary on the Epistle of Peter and Jude). As the people of S&G have a temporal existence on earth and suffered temporarily, the eternal body has a permanent existence that suffers eternally.

Next time, please plan on making your own arguments. One wonders if you have read enough of their arguments to state them??? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

Please read Hell on Trial.

“I wasn’t aware that it was my responsibility to make your arguments??? Aren’t you capable???”

Yes, I am capable, but it is much easier for me, if you show the argument, since you know so much about both views and I will fill in the gaps.


Rev. 20:10:

“(1) Jesus taught that unsaved people suffer the Devil’s fate—Matt 25:41; (2) the verses following this verse depict resurrected human beings thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) ….The lake of fire signifies not extinction in opposition to existence, but torturous existence in the society of evil in opposition to the life in the society of God (paraphrase of Beasley-Murray).”

Bacchiocchi dealt with Matt. 25:41,46 and he wrote that people like you ignore 4 major considerations. The 1st consideration is that Jesus was not trying to define the essence of either eternal life or eternal death, but that the individual had 2 destinies. The particulars of each destiny is not discussed in the passage.

2nd, the fire is what is eternal, as your Stott quote addresses (The fire itself is termed “eternal” and “unquenchable,” but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proves indestructible. Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed for ever, not tormented forever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which “rises for ever and ever.”), but you so quickly dismissed, with the statement, “However, their argument fails because Babylon cannot survive the creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev 21:17), whereas the damned do survive, as Rev 21:8 and 22:15 bear witness.” As if everyone in Christendom would agree with you that the chronology of Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 must follow the event spoken of in Rev. 18:8, 18; 19:3. Is it not the end of the “city of man” that Babylon represents, and is this passage circular (in respect to time) as are the “seals”, “trumpets” and “bowls” culminating with the end of the earth? Being a “Amillennialist” , judgment , 2nd Coming and “The New Earth and Heaven” are the same event at that Last Day. If I am right , then “Her smoke rises up forever and ever” (19:3) is a significant statement in understanding Rev. 14: 11 and 20:10, as are O.T. Scripture such as Isaiah 34:9-10; “The streams of Edom shall not be turned into pitch, and her soil into brimstone; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched, it’s smoke shall go up for ever and ever”.
Being a person who I would imagine, prides himself in having a systematic approach to Scripture, can you really say without a doubt that John’s use of fire and smoke to describe the fate of Babylon in 18:8 and 19:3 are not connected to the ante-type of Edom and Sodom and Gomorrah? BTW, is not God addressed as a “Consuming fire” in Heb. 12:29, and if so, is Stott really that far off in his description that the fire that destroys is the aspect of that which is eternal? Which leads to the 3rd point.

3RD, The fire is eternal as Bacchiocchi states, “not because of its endless duration, but because of its complete consumption and annihilation of the wicked. This is indicated clearly by the fact that the lake of fire, in which the wicked are thrown, is called the explicitly ‘the second death” (Rev. 20:14; 21:8), because it causes the final radical and irreversible extinction of life”. I have notice in all my reading of the traditionalist arguments of annihilation, they have a “hand full” of main verses that they use as their arsenal. Where are all the arguments in regards to the magnitude of verses which very clearly say that the wicked will “perish”, be “destroyed” and “die”, such as Matt. 7:13-14,John 3:16, John 5:24, Romans 6:23, 2Thess. 1:9 and etc, especially in the light of being demanding upon the annihilationist to stick to the clear meaning of such verses as Mt25:46 and Rev.20:10?

4th, “Jesus was offering a choice between destruction and life when He said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only few find it" (Matt 7:13-14).33 Here Jesus contrasts the comfortable way which leads to destruction in hell with the narrow way of trials and persecutions which leads to eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. The contrast between destruction and life suggests that the "eternal fire" causes the eternal destruction of the lost, not their eternal torment. (Bacchiocchi)”.


“However, annihilationism holds that the wicked dead will be resurrected to face a judgment prior to their extinction! Once again this theology is found wanting. Jude teaches that God’s judgment of S&G furnishes an earthly temporal example of the final fate of the wicked. Jude means that the still burning site of the cities is a warning picture of the eternal fires of Hell! According to Philo, “even to this day the visible tokens of the indescribable disaster are pointed out in Syria –ruins, cinders, brimstone, smoke and murky flames which continue to rise from the ground as from a fire still smoldering beneath” (JND Kelly, A Commentary on the Epistle of Peter and Jude). As the people of S&G have a temporal existence on earth and suffered temporarily, the eternal body has a permanent existence that suffers eternally. “


“5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently DESTROYED those who did not believe.
6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the GREAT DAY,
7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an EXAMPLE in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”

J. Edwards is willing to say that verse 7 is a “temporal example” of the judgment to come, but somehow the annihilationist is “found wanting”, though this example gives us a vivid picture of that “GREAT DAY”. Noah and the Ark is also an example of God’s judgment then and as well as to come (except with fire 2Peter 3:10, which again supports the annihilationist). Noah was also a type of Christ (though not the actual Christ) as was Moses, Joseph, David, and a host of others. Would it not be a narrow view that the ante-types were not a significant truth leading to a even bigger truth?
I am simply amazed, in that my only premise of this particular post was to show that the annihilationist does seem to have a legitimate claim to be heard, not necessarily “taken hook, line and sinker” for one’s doctrinal position on hell, but to be heard nonetheless. Even F.F. Bruce commented on the scholarly work of Fudge’s book, as did Michael Horton, but J. Edwards, the seminary graduate, can only see him as a “heretic”.
Geomic

Just because he wrote a "scholarly work" doesn't make him any less the heretic. Sproul also admires Bullmon(I think that is the spelling) for his ability to exegete the passage clearly but He also says the man denys everything the passage says. In other words a gross heretic. J_Edwards is doing the same thing. Let us call a spade a gardening instrument here. If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, and I can get it from Peking I call it a duck. Annihilationism is a heresy plain and simple. Those who teach it our outside the normative teachings of the Scriptures.

See if you had just been satisfied with my first answer you could have saved yourself some trouble.