The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Response to 'Tongues-Nonsense and Martyn Lloyd-Jon

Amen! That is the point. [Please hear the words that follow as a mild rebuke in love.] The same is true of the cessationist position. Not only does the Bible not teach the cessationist position, it is not historically verified either.


When the Spirit came upon individuals in the OT, there were times when that manfiested in prophetic utterances; utterances that did not make their way in to the Bible. But these occurences were a shadow of the things that were to come later.

Numbers 11:25-29 ESV Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it. (26) Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and th Spirit rested on them. They were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp. (27) And a young man ran and told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp." (28) And Joshua the son of Nun, the assistant of Moses from his youth, said, "My lord Moses, stop them." (29) But Moses said to him, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them."

Moses was entirely right, he longed to see the day that all the people of God would be partakers of the Holy Spirit, making up a prophetic community that is now called the church.

Joel 2:28-29 ESV "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. (29) Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit."

Pentecost, we are told very clearly by Peter, was a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy, promising that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on all flesh--those who the Lord calls to himself. This is what Moses wanted, but more importantly, this is what God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit have planned for, for ages and ages.

Acts 2:16-18 ESV But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: (17) "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; (18) even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy."

Notice that last phrase. Check the Joel passage again for those words. They are not there. Luke was inspired by God to to put them there seemingly to emphasize a point.

The promise is not just to them though, but to all the Lord will call to himself.

Acts 2:32-39 ESV This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. (33) Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. (34) For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, (35) until I make your enemies your footstool.' (36) Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." (37) Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" (38) And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (39) For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Why prophecy?

1 Corinthians 14:3 ESV On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

Those are great goals for the church. That is why Paul says, "Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy."

Look how Paul encourages Timothy with things that were prophesied:

1 Timothy 1:18 ESV This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,

1 Timothy 4:14-16 ESV Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. (15) Practice these things, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. (16) Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.


Paul teaches extensively on spiritual gifts in general, and prophecy in particular.

Romans 12:6-9 ESV Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; (7) if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; (8) the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. (9) Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.

1 Corinthians 11:4-5 ESV Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, (5) but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11 ESV To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. (8) To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, (9) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, (10) to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. (11) All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

1 Corinthians 12:28-30 ESV And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? (30) Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 14:1-4 ESV Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. (2) For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. (3) On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. (4) The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

1 Corinthians 14:26-32 ESV What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. (27) If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. (28) But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. (29) Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. (30) If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. (31) For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, (32) and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.

1 Corinthians 14:37-40 ESV If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. (38) If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. (39) So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. (40) But all things should be done decently and in order.

Ephesians 4:11-16 ESV And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, (12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, (13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (14) so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (15) Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, (16) from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 ESV Do not quench the Spirit. (20) Do not despise prophecies, (21) but test everything; hold fast what is good.

Yes, there will be false prophets, but there will also be false teachers. Should we throw out the office of the teacher becasue there may arise false teachers?

2 Peter 2:1 ESV But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Don't you get the feeling that the Holy Spirit invested a lot of space in the Bible for these gifts?

Longing earnestly with you, for the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kevin

Hudson Taylor
“Souls are perishing now for [our] lack of power…Let us ask Him to search us and remove all that hinders His working in us in large measure.”

Wrong on both counts. But I'll direct you here for more information: The Charismatic Movement. Also to this piece for a relatively concise refutation of noncessationism, especially with regards to the gift of tongues: "Speaking in 'Tongues': Is It a Gift for Today?"


I don't argue that the office of prophet has ceased because there will be false prophets. It has ceased because revelation has ceased, and because the miraculous gifts are no longer necessary to establish the validity of the apostles and their ministry. Similarly the office of apostle has ceased. There aren't any more apostles.


He invested a lot of space also to the ceremonial law.

But when the ceremonial law was abolished, there was very clear teaching that it was abolished. Galatians, Hebrews, the Gospels, Colossians. That is not true for cessation of gifts (ie, tongues and prophecy.)

The only verse that even remotely appears to teach cessation is dealing with the second coming of Christ. As far as I can tell, that hasn't happened yet.

1 Corinthians 13:8-12 ESV Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. (9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part, (10) but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (11) When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. (12) For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."

I will re-read those articles. May I suggest another resource for you? Try reading the Four Views book by IVP on Charismatic Gifts. Read especially the Third Wave View by Sam Storms. In my estimation, he absolutely dismantles the cessationist view (as well as the Pentecostal view) in one clean conscise article. Also note, his responses to each of the other views.


With you in Christ,

Kevin

I think it's quite clear, but you may have to look through those articles I suggested to see why I say so.


No interest. I was Pentecostal. I've heard the arguments in favor of noncessationism. In my view, the biblically-defined function of those gifts—to attest to the authority of the ministry of the apostles and to announce judgement on Israel and the ingathering of the Gentiles—destroys all the arguments for their continuance.

I was Pentecostal too. I left Pentecostalism because I disagree with their interpretation of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I disagree with their Arminian theology. I disagree with the abuse of the gift of tongues and prophecy. I am disgusted with the many spurious claims of divine healing. I find that in a good number of places, Pentecostalism produces a “health and wealth” effect. It bothers me to no end when they write off verses that disagree with their theology.

When you say “the biblically defined function,” are you speaking in general of what they accomplished? Or, do you mean the biblically defined purpose? These can be the same, they can be different. A butter knife can function as a steak knife, but the purpose is for spreading butter.

Spiritual gifts can function as signs. The signs of believers.

Mark 16:17-18 ESV And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; (18) they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

The signs of non-believers and believers.

1 Corinthians 14:22 ESV Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

The signs of apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:12 ESV The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. (I wonder which signs?)

Spiritual gifts can also have the purpose to build up the church:

Ephesians 4:11-12 ESV And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, (12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7 ESV To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:1-4 ESV Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. (2) For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. (3) On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. (4) The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

Romans 12:4-9 ESV For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, (5) so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. (6) Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; (7) if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; (8) the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. (9) Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.

1 Corinthians 14:24-25 ESV But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, (25) the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

There are many instances within Church History of God giving revelation to believers (i.e., revealing some knowledge to someone, other than through the reflective meditation of scripture).



Spurgeon would never say that he was prophesying, or that he was speaking a word of knowledge, or a word of wisdom. He just said, “I believed I was moved by the Spirit to say it.” But what difference does it make? The Holy Spirit was still revealing something to him. And this revelation was not then put at the same level as Scripture. How do we know that he wasn’t given a word of knowledge, or a word of prophecy? At least then, the glory would be given to God, not to man.

I read with interest the following article:

MODERN SPIRITUAL GIFTS AS ANALOGOUS TO APOSTOLIC GIFTS: AFFIRMING EXTRAORDINARY WORKS OF THE SPIRIT WITHIN CESSATIONIST THEOLOGY
Vern Sheridan Poythress
JETS 39/1 (March 1996) 71–101


I think Poythress is right.


I love what Paul write to the Corinthians, “I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, (5) that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge-- (6) even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you-- (7) so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Corinthians 1:4-7 ESV

Please, all who reads this. Take one day, and prayerfully consider this. Then respond to me.

Consider the words of John Wesley.

"Are you persuaded you see more clearly than me? It is not unlikely that you may. Then treat me as you would desire to be treated yourself upon a change of circumstances. Point me out a better way than I have yet known. Show me it is so by plain proof of Scripture. And if I linger in the path I have been accustomed to tread, and therefore I am unwilling to leave it, labour with me a little; take me by the hand and lead me as I am able to bear. But be not discouraged if I entreat you not to beat me down in order to quicken my pace: I can go but feebly and slowly at best: then I should not be able to go at all. May I not request you, further, not to give me hard names, in order to bring me into the right way. Suppose I was ever so much in the wrong, I doubt this would not set me right. Rather it would make me run so much the further from you, and so get more and more out of the way.

“Nay! perhaps if you are angry, so shall I be too; and then there will be small hopes of finding the truth. If once anger arises, its smoke will so dim the eyes of my soul that I shall be able to see nothing clearly. For God's sake, if it be possible to avoid it, let us not provoke one another to wrath. Let us not kindle in each other this fire of hell; much less blow it up into a flame. If we could discern truth by that dreadful tight, would it not be loss rather than gain? For how far is love, even with many wrong opinions, to be preferred before truth itself without love! We may die without the knowledge of many truths, and yet be carried into Abraham's bosom. But if we die without love, what will knowledge avail? Just as much as it avails the devil and his angels!"

Some articles for your edification.
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/spiritualgifts.html
http://desiringgod.org/library/sermons/04/101004.html
http://www.etsjets.org/jets/journal/39/39-1/39-1-pp071-101_JETS.pdf
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article2.asp?id=187

Blessings to you!

Kevin

Funny you should quote from one of my former professors on this matter! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> However, I think the esteemed professor has failed to grasp what Gaffin, Robertson, countless others and finally, myself find indefensible, where you quote him as saying:

The problem is, which I have myriad times mentioned and asked for a rebuttal of, which has never come forth is that what Grudem and those who hold to a similar tenuous position insist upon is that source of these "fallible gifts" is God Who speaks directly. If it is truly, "Thus saith the LORD...", then by the very nature of the communication it cannot be fallible. Grudem tries to argue that somehow this "infallible" word of communication gets corrupted when it is finally set forth by the recipient. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/sorry.gif" alt="" />

What Gaffin holds to, as do I, and which Poythress tries to bend into an acceptable shape which both sides can appreciate, is that the revelatory gifts i.e., the direct communication of God to individuals has ceased, but the gifts of the Spirit which are appropriate for upbuilding the saints, e.g., illumination of the Scriptures continue within those who are called to serve in the official positions of the Church, e.g., Pastor, Teacher, Evangelist. Poythress' intentions may be sincere enough, at least in his own eyes, but I see no possible way to reconcile the views of Cessationism and non-Cessationism. It is not so dissimilar to those who would try and play "Borg" and assimilate Calvinism and Arminianism; an impossible task since the two are antithetical.

In His grace,

God has been gracious to you, to allow you to study at Westminster Seminary.


The scriptures teach that the revelatory gifts of prophecy and tongues with interpretation are appropriate for building up the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:3 ESV "On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation."

I know that we both believe that. But you believe that God has clearly removed those gifts from the church. I have read the articles, and have not seen that case presented from the Scriptures. If you were to quote a few verses in your posts that teach that, it would help me tremendously.

I am wondering how would you classify the experience of Spurgeon that I quoted earlier?


This kind of experience seems to me to point past "illumination of the scriptures," and point to a direct communication from God to a man. And the purpose was for bringing a man to repentance, and to faith in Christ.

That experience fits nicely with the teachings of 1 Corinthains 14:25. We are commanded to test all things, and bring all claims (whether sermons, books, church history, prophecies) to the teaching of the Scriptures, and weigh carefully what is said. I see no contradiction to Spurgeons claim (that he "was moved by the Spirit to say it") but another example of God's gracious dealings with sinners.


Perhaps it would be useful to quote from John Piper on his understanding of the nature of NT prophecy (which Poythress also seems to accept as a valid interpretation).


There are many other examples of this kind of revelation continuing in the church. Spurgeon is old-modern example. There is evidence in the early church as well.


Blessings to you in Christ,

Kevin

Take it for what it's worth, but the doctrine of "light" Cessationism isn't to be found in prooftexting but rather from the Analogy of Faith, e.g., as is the doctrine of the Trinity. Dr. Richard Gaffin, IMHO, has presented the best defense for the Cessationist position and a polemic against the perpetuity of the ecstatic/revelatory gifts in his book, Perspectives on Pentecost. O. Palmer Robertson's book, The Final Word is also worth reading on this subject as well. And finally, although I find his emphasis upon water baptism to be extreme, Frederick Dale Bruner's work, A Theology of the Holy Spirit is definitely worth reading.

Re: Spurgeon's experience..... what can I say except, "A man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience." <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: John Piper, well, needless to say, I am not a fan of the man and find some of his views to be erroneous. I realize that he is a protagonist for a non-Cessationist view and have read most of his arguments which I have found wanting, but no less so than anyone else's arguments for that view. Aside from Gaffin's iron-clad exegetical study on this subject, my concern still remains foremost in my mind as to the fallacy of non-Cessationism, i.e., the matter of an infallible God communicating fallible revelation or failing to secure the inerrancy of that communication as it is "channeled" through an individual.

In His grace,

Pilgrim, just one more question. I am a little curious. What do you think was happening during those events? Lucky guess? Exaggerated account? Too much Pizza? Demons? Perhaps God working through Spurgeon's incredible intellect? What do you think?

This will be my last post on this thread, unless someone else wants to continue it. I hope that there are no hard feelings between us. I rejoice that you are my brother in Christ.

Kevin

How about . . . divine providence?

You may find this of interest: http://phillipjohnson.blogspot.com/2005/11/spurgeon-on-private-prophecies-and-new.html

Hey thanks. I almost always profit from Phil Johnson.

Kevin