The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Double predestination

If you carefully read my reply, I have already answered you .

b says
Do you know the true gospel? What is it I pray thee? Maybe I am one of Gods elect, and He may use you to tell me the Gospel! What is it? Please explain it

You HAVE NOT answered the questions below. PLEASE answer the question(s). Why are you avoiding the answer? Are you scared that you have been caught in your heresy?

Sin cannot exist without a sinner. You state that the first sinner was Satan. Was Satan created prior to God creating sin "in your way of thinking"?

Hmmmmm, now you add arrogance to the long list of things which are unbecoming to your profession. You are hardly one to be compared to the Apostle Paul nor any others I have ever read or known who were of the people of God. Perhaps comparing yourself to Arius or Marcion would have been more accurate.

It seems as though you can`t read, please don`t ask me that question again, I have already answered it, in an above post. What am I to be scared of, I have clearly set forth my position...

I can only assume then you are scared to make a straight answer because you realize that your heresy has been exposed for the 100th or so time. Goodbye B57,

Beloved57,

Just put it this way in your mind. Evil is not a created thing. Evil is not a substance. Evil is not an entity. Evil is not a being. Evil is not a force. Evil is not some floating spirit. Evil is a lack of moral perfection. God created absolute perfection. Wherever a lack of that exists, sin exists. And that cannot exist in the nature of God or in anything that God makes. Evil comes into existence when God's creatures fall short of the standard of moral perfection.

Now, let's take it a step futher. God did not create evil. He did not author evil. He did not make evil. But listen carefully, very important: God did decree to use evil as a part of his eternal plan, okay? He will not be culpable for it. He did not bring it into existence. That would be impossible because God is good, all good and only good. Therefore, whatever comes out of Him is all good and only good. God can, therefore, produce only good. And what is evil but the absence of that good, which is a choice made by the reasonings based upon the information revealed to his creatures? But, God was not caught off guard. In fact, God decreed that evil would be part of his plan. He is not the creator of evil, and He is not the cause of evil. He did not bring evil into existence in a cosmic sense, and he did not and does not bring evil into existence in a personal sense. He is not the cause of sin, nor is he the cause of sins in the lives of people. But he does use it for his purposes. And that's why in Isaiah 45:7 -- just write this down; you may run across it. It says God creates "calamity." Some older translations say He "creates evil." That is a really poor translation, and not true. God does create "calamity." And if you read the context of Isaiah 45:7, it is clear that judgment is the issue. God does not create evil, but God does bring judgment on evil, creating therefore the calamity by which evil is judged. Now, listen carefully: Scripture written by God always assigns the guilt and responsibility for all sin to creatures; never to God. Never to God.

The above two paragraphs are a small portion of a sermon preached by John MacArthur entitled The Origin of Evil. The preaching of God's Word is a means of grace. May this message be used of God to shed light on your path today.


God did not create sin!


Wes

Dearly beloved57,

Ignorance is not a crime, so I guess you're free to go.

I do have one last comment. B-52, if you do not know that evil and sin fester and erupt from the creature Alone you will never know or appreciate what unmerited Grace truly is.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

From Ligonier:

Barry Cooper

October 10, 2023

Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism


In eternity, did God choose to elect His people to salvation based on His decision to permit humanity’s fall into sin, or was it the other way around? Today, Barry Cooper takes up this heady question and the two big words that seek to answer it.

Transcript
Every year, a number of brand-new words and phrases are added to the dictionary. Some recent ones include reaction gif, hard pass, flex, and performative.

If the aim is to make most people over the age of twenty-five feel old and out of touch, then congratulations, mission accomplished. And yes, before I get lots of performative emails, taking a hard pass on my pronunciation of gif, it is pronounced jif and not gif. “No, it isn’t, Barry. Gif stands for Graphics Interchange Format. you don’t say jraphics, do you?” Yeah, I know. But it’s an acronym, like scuba, where the u stands for “underwater,” which is a short u, and if you’re walking around saying “scubba” you may be in need of more help than this podcast can give you.

I mention this because I’m about to say two different words. I know it’ll sound like I’ve just made them up to make you feel angry, but no, they actually exist. And they have done, apparently, since the middle of the eighteenth century at least. The two words are supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism.

The “laps” bit in each of those words may help you to remember what they mean. Because lapsus is from the Latin meaning “fall.” So these two words address a question related to the fall. And the question is this: When did God decide to elect people to salvation—was it before God made the decision to create the world and permit the fall, or was it after His decision to create the world and permit the fall? Those who think it was before are supralapsarians. And those who think it was after are infralapsarians.

Just to be clear, this isn’t a question about the order that things happened in time; it’s a question of what order these things were logically decided upon in God’s mind. And while there might be a hint of frostiness between supralapsarians and infralapsarians when they bump into each other at parties—great parties they must be—people holding these two positions have a great deal in common, and both fall within the parameters of Reformed theology.

After all, they both accept the biblical truth that God decreed all His redemptive acts before He ever created the world and before the fall ever happened.

But logically, what came first in God’s mind? The decree of election and reprobation, or the decree to create the world and permit the fall?

If you take the supralapsarian position, literally meaning “before the fall,” chances are you have God’s sovereignty uppermost in your mind. Before thinking of creating the universe and ordaining a fall, God had first thought to ordain some for life and some for death. The reason He then thought to create the world and ordain a fall was so that the wisdom and glory of His decision to elect some and not others would be displayed.

But if you take the infralapsarian position, literally meaning “after the fall,” chances are you have God’s mercy uppermost in your mind. It was after God thought of creating the universe and ordaining a fall that He purposed to show His mercy by electing some to salvation. Infralapsarians would argue, if they cornered you at that party I was talking about, that it makes more logical sense for God to think of election after there are hypothetical people to elect—after He decreed that there would be a fall. Without first decreeing a fall, why would God think to save anyone from that fall?

For what it’s worth, it’s this latter position, the infralapsarian one, that has been held by most Reformed theologians across history.

But there are notable exceptions, for example the Puritan Thomas Goodwin, who held to what has been called Christological Supralapsarianism. The end of all God’s decrees is the union of the elect with Christ, which is consummated in heaven. The last thing that will happen in time—that consummation with Christ in heaven—was the first thing that God intended in His mind: the final union of the elect with Him. Or to put it another way, God’s supreme motive, which lies behind the ordering of all His decrees, is simply the glory of Jesus Christ.

I know, heady stuff. And again, both positions are consistent with Scripture—you can make a reasonable case for both. So it’s not something to fall out over, unlike the very important matter of whether we should say gif or jif.

By the way, in real life, I do actually pronounce it gif. I was just flexing.


https://learn.ligonier.org/podcasts/simply-put/supralapsarianism-and-infralapsarianism

Is that actual required though to be held in order to be a reformed?

1. What is the "that" you are asking about?
2. What is the alternative if one rejects both/either Infralapsarianism or Supralapsarianism?
3. Do you believe that God ordained from all eternity some to salvation and all others to damnation WITHOUT any recognition of persons before they were even conceived?

I'd imagine reformed folks adhere to one or the other. I don't think if one is Supra that nullifies them being reformed, the same can be said for those who adhere to infra. I'd imagine if you are not one or the other, you are closer to being aligned with guise like Dr. Leighton Flowers than reformed folk.

I would subscribe to the Infra view, as that would appear to be the view expressed in the 1689 Confession