The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Men's and Women's studies

I am interested to know if anyone has any thoughts or experiences with their local church investing great theological study material and instruction into the women and ladies of the church, while keeping the men to the studies of such things as self help and "be a nice guy" theology. I do not support or justify the seperating of families at the church, and I do not allow the training and instruction of my family to be outsourced to my local church, so please don't misunderstand. I am trying to understand (and it may not be possible) the motive behind the dumbing down of the men, and the intense investments into the ladies of a given church. For example, the women gathering twice a week to study the Holiness of God by Sproul, while the men meet once every few weeks to study Patrick Morley's man in the mirror. Or the ladies gathering to study the doctrines of calvinism while the men are together to study economics by Dave Ramsey. Is this fruit of lazy men without any desire to lead, or is this more complex? I am interested to see what anyone might have to say. Again, I do not partake in these activities. I train my children, I teach my wife, I lead my family as is my responsability. But, this is the state of my local church that I describe and I am willing to bet that others have encountered this.

It sounds as if this is a church well on their way to allowing women to the Pastoral office. The logic is circular and self-fulfilling and will run as follows:
1) Women receive greater theological training
2) Women will know more than men about theology
3) People will say - "Look, the women know more than the men, therefore the women should not be barred from the Pastoral office"

It is my opinion that this is intentional, either at the church or the denominational level (I am not sure if you are in a denomination or not). Also given the topic of the men's group meetings (secular topics), one has to wonder the emphasis and the state of the church...these are to be secondary issues, they may be covered in a church setting but should always be secondary to Jesus and the Gospel.

Why not ask about having a men's study on something theological and doctrinal, and see what occurs?

Steve

There isn’t enough in your post about your church to give you a real accurate assessment on what I think. But I will give you my opinion based on what you have said. First, on the positive side of things, there seems to be at least an acceptance of good sound theological training, whether for the woman or men. But just because a few groups in the church on a whole are viewing good material doesn’t mean that it’s a balanced healthy church. It just means that there is someone in a particular group who is interested in sharing good biblical truth.

In the situation that you have just described, it seems to me that there is probably a leader in the woman’s bible studies that enjoys sound theological truth and has taken the time to purchase and set up good programs for the woman. And on the other hand, it sounds as if the men’s group isn’t as lucky. They probably have a man leading them that isn’t as educated or motivated to use more theological based material.

So the first problem that jumps out at me is; who is responsible for selecting the study material for these two groups? In my opinion, there should be an ordained church leader responsible for adult education. There should also be an ordained church leader that heads both the woman’s ( a woman deacon ) and men’s group ( a man elder or deacon ). These church leaders should have had to go through an acceptable deacon or elder training course and have proven to the church that they are qualified to be church leaders. They should be knowledgeable of God’s Word and they should be capable of the teaching, maturing and edifying of other members of the church.

I don’t see anything wrong with a men’s and women’s group. I believe that men like having the chance to be in fellowship with other men and talk about men’s issues and vice versa. I also think that it’s a way to develop accountability groups and to spur each other on to be better fathers, mothers, husbands and wives. I also think that it’s a good way to get the men to help out with manly things that need to be done at the church, such as raking leaves, painting, moving heavy furniture etc… And the same for the woman, making meals, cleaning and etc… I’ve enjoyed the ministry opportunities and the fellowship that I’ve had in men’s groups.

But I am in full agreement that the main focus for both of these groups should be on the family. Yes there are going to be single people in these groups, but the singles should be viewing their church membership as being apart of the church family. They should be encouraged to share their time, gifts and talents in ministry to the church family.

The second problem I see here is that there might not be clear instruction and direction coming from the teaching elder or elders or pastors. Everything going on in the church should be under the supervision of the pastor or pastors. There should also be sound preaching and teaching coming from the pulpit. There should be no excuse for anyone not maturing in a church period! Period! If the body isn’t growing in some way then it’s the pastors fault, no if ands or butts about it. I was in the Navy and I still have the Navy’s mentality to where everything that happened on a ship was ultimately the Skippers responsibility. No matter what went wrong, it was ultimately the Captain’s responsibility to see to it that his men were properly trained and capable to handle any situation that could arise. I also believe that hold’s true for the home as well. I believe it’s the husbands/fathers duty to be the head of the household and ultimately responsible for the growth and actions of his wife and children. If there isn’t any growth/maturation going on in the home it’s his fault. This holds true for the local assembly as well. I don’t buy all the bull about how busy the pastor is and how many people are in a particular church and how hard it is for the pastor to be responsible for so many people. Sorry, excuses are like noses, everybody has one. It’s the pastor’s responsibility to Shepard his flock and to lead and guide them. That’s his job, that is his calling. If it’s not being done, it’s his fault.

One last comment, I’m assuming that your pastor or pastor’s are men. So I’m thinking, why aren’t they at the men’s study? Please, please don’t tell me that they or he doesn’t attend to men’s study. If you have a men’s study and the pastor isn’t coming, then you’ve got problems. If he does attend, then why is he allowing weak, watered down material to be used? Just a thought.

As far as the PCA church that I attend, we have excellent woman’s and men’s groups. They focus on the family and church leaders always attend. They are both very edifying and very helpful. I have enjoyed being apart of the men’s group and I have enjoyed having my wife be apart of the woman’s group. We also belong to a small group that focuses on the family and on marriage and we here good, sound expository preaching and teaching from the pulpit.

So to end this, I have found really that when ever there seems to be something out of balance and or a major problem, go to your pastor. That is what he is there for. If he or they don’t seem interested in your concerns then, after prayer and consideration, maybe you should think about looking around for a more biblical church.

Soli Deo Gloria,

Dave.

Unfortunately, in many Churches it is my experience that when courses with substance are held, i.e. hermeneutics, etc... there are very few men who attend.
It isn't as though there aren't many men in the Church; it is just that for what ever reason many men do not attend.

I hope my experince isn't the norm.

Tom

And why do you think that is, Tom? Can you offer any reasons for the lack of attendance?

I can only guess.
But it would appear that in many cases, men just don't want to attend such functions.
But I do know that they do attend things where coffee and food are offered.

Tom

Most men will show up if they can get free food and coffee.

Would it help if I asked the question again so that you perhaps might offer an answer to the question instead of repeating it? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

Why do you suppose that these men whom you mentioned, do not attend sessions where doctrinal matters are being taught? (it is assumed, Tom, that they don't want to attend and thus the question.)

These "things" that men DO attend where coffee and food are offered, would they include those "things" where theology, doctrine and/or catechetical matters are being taught? Or would such "things" be excluded even though coffee and food are offered?

In His grace,

Johnnie,

It would appear that you are simply repeating what Tom wrote from his own personal observations. So, I would like to also ask you the same question plus another:

1) Why do you suppose that, according to your conclusion, that men will show up at functions that serve free food and coffee?

2) Would these same men show up if free food and coffee weren't offered? And if not, what could you conclude about those men?

In His grace,

I think mostly because it is free food. Also if the women that cook the food have a reputation for good cooking most will show up for that reason.

I could conclude that they do not care about spirtitual matters and only care about their carnal needs.

You could try to offer coffee and donuts and teach doctrine classes and see if that works.

I also think the problem is made worse by a lot of churches not teaching doctrine in any depth. Most will only skim the surface if that much.

I would conclude these men are likely not saved. I may be going out on a limb here, but if they do not care about doctrinal matters...and only will go if there is food, then their salvation would be called into question.

Or maybe they are not used to a church that teaches doctrinal matters in depth. If they grew up in a church that did not care about teaching doctrine, it would be hard to want to study doctrine on your own.

Most people I know dont know why I read as much doctrine as I do. They dont care to learn more than what is taught in church.

Excellent question. We were able to persuade the men to to a study of a confession. Within days the group shrunk to a quarter it's size. Within a month 3 men were faithful. Not enough interest according to the committees, therefore it was cancelled for the better part of a year.
ANother factor is that our church is ruled by committees. The "education" committee is run almost entirely by the women of the church.

Or, could it be that the teachers are so spiritually inept that they wouldn’t know the truth if it bit them on the nose and thus are dead as teachers; not being living teachers of the gospel. Thus, the men do not wish to attend ….

There are various reasons why men do not come to church (bad teaching, known sin in one’s life, one being lost, saved wives club which constantly batter their husbands to be better (no offense ladies, men do the same thing, et. al.), etc).

If food (physical) is ALL that gets anyone to the church you have a very bad problem afoot. What do you serve when you teach on fasting? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

Shouldn't the pastors be leading this group? And if the Pastors are inadequate teachers then they are inadequate preachers. And if the Pastors are inadequate as teachers and preachers it is because they are not teaching the Word. And if that is that case....