The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Gods will!

Dear friends, There seems to be a teaching going around here in England which is saying that God has TWO wills, His permissive will and His decretive will! I only know of His Sovereign will, as He appoints. This was taught at our last church, which we had to leave for several reasons. Just wondering if anyone can add anything to this, and if it is known where this false teaching came from? Yours, in the cause of God and Truth, English Rose

Rose,

Not sure if what you are referring to is a "false teaching" or the biblical truth in the matter of God's "will". First, there are not "two" wills in God but one. Whatever is God's "good pleasure" is that which He has done or will do in time and history. It is He Who has determined from eternity all that is and all that will occur. This is most likely what you refer to as His "Sovereign will". However, the Church has always made a distinction between what God has decreed, aka: "decretive will" (secret will) and what He has revealed in His infallible Word to man, which is that which all men are responsible to do, aka: "prescriptive will" (revealed will). Where this "permissive will" fits in I can't say without knowing more about it in detail.

God does not "permit" anything in the sense that man is given freedom to do as he wills apart from what He (God) has decreed, else the very definition of God would be violated. It is true that men have myriad thoughts, desires and perform acts which are contrary to His "prescriptive will", i.e., contrary to His revealed will, aka: His commandments. But even those things have been decreed by God to accomplish all that He has determined for His glory and for the good of the elect. Simply put, there is absolutely nothing which is beyond the control of God or that which has not been determined from eternity. Yet, all men are responsible and freely think what they will and do what they will without coercion in the sense that they are forced to think, feel or do anything which is contrary to their will. It is here that many become confused or launch a strong objection and wrongly conclude that this view makes men "puppets".

The truth is that God is 100% sovereign and controls all things according to His eternal determinate counsel. AND, it is also true that all men are 100% responsible for everything they think, feel and do.

Can you provide anything further in regard to what is meant by "permissive will"?

In His grace,

Thank you Pilgrim for your helpful post.
Sorry I did not make matters clear and am not very good at explaining, except I know that God only has ONE Sovereign will
in His divine plan for mankind, for the reprobate and for the elect.
I was merely pointing out something which our last church was teaching, and many were confused by it, and more recently the two wills of God have been brought up in an article called Biblical Priorities for Today's church - The Sovereignty of our God - by John P. Thackway (Pastor in Wales) - and he says
"The usual approach is this - that there is such a thing as God's decretive will by which He decrees things, but then there is also His permissive will, and it is by this permissive will that He permits all these things to happen to us. It cannot be that God actually DOES them, but that He allows them to happen. I suggest to you that the Bible's answer unequivocally is that God APPOINTS all our trials and our sorrows. "
This was why I was prompted to bring it up.
I believe totally in God's Sovereignty and He does whatsoever He has chosen to do, for He is God Almighty.
If I have missed anything I should know as Truth, please let me know, as my illness has prevented me from attending anywhere regularly for biblical instruction.
In Christ, English Rose

I have always found Acts 2:23 ones of the best of examples of the true nature God's decrees:


Murder is certainly not God's moral will. He has expressly forbidden it. Yet it was His eternal decree for His own Son to be betrayed and murdered. It kinda looks like "two wills" on the surface. But His "permissive" will (He permitted the murder of His Son) also happens to be His decreitive will (the predetermined plan).

Still amazed at God's rule - in fact getting more and more amazed all the time,
Robin

Good post, but I wonder if it helps in day to day situation.

My former Pastor used the terms, 'Perfect Will' and 'Permissive Will', not in the historical context, but in explaining why some Christians do bad things that run contrary to biblical-ethics. For instance, when a spouse leaves a spouse. It is easier on the ears to say that God allowed it, He could have stopped it but didn't; than saying that God decreed it.

The Will is far more easier to understand when its in the realm of redemption as oppose in the realm in attempting to live our lives in obedience to His Word. We may fall off the wagon and get back up; but what about those in our path that bears the brunt of our wandering.

John,

What do you think of the terms and distinction your former pastor used? Personally, when I hear someone speak in this manner, particularly when comparing a "Perfect Will" to another "will", I cannot help but wonder if there must not be an "Imperfect Will"? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" /> In regard to "Permissive Will", it would be all too easy for someone to conclude that God had a tentative plan laid out for this individual (Imperfect Will) which the person disregarded and rather than somehow stopping what the person was about to think, feel or do, God simply decided (temporal change) to "permit" it and would deal with things later with "Plan B". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

This is why I much prefer the "Decretive" and "Prescriptive" terms which cannot be wrongly set against each other. The first is what God has determined from eternity and the second is that which man is fully responsible for. If a person lives contrary to the latter, then the person is responsible and will be held accountable even though everything was eternally decreed.

In His grace,

Thank you for that, Robin, which says it all!

English Rose

dear friends, I put the same question to another group to which I belong, namely 5solas.org, and I have been given permission to print the reply from Robert R. Higby as follows:-

English Rose: There is a teaching going around here in England that God has TWO wills - His permissive will and His decretive will.

Actually, such teaching has been flourishing for many centuries among those who profess to be solid Calvinists--so it is hard to know where it originated. But I'm very glad to see that so many here recognize the severe false teaching present in the nothion that God has a permissive will! Such a doctrine leads to nothing but the depreciation of God's sovereignty, immutability, and redemptive purposes through the grace extended to the elect in Christ's person and work!

God has but one unitary will and always gets what he wants. When men do not obey his commandments, that too is according to his sovereign will. There is a teaching on God's KINGDOM will in the synoptic gospels that leads some to deny his unitary sovereign will. However, such denials only demonstrate a serious ignorance of scripture as a whole. God's sovereign will issues in both the kingdoms of light and darkness. The fact that the synoptic gospels quote Christ as teaching that only the elect "do God's will" in no way depreciates the sovereign will of God. Jesus is simply saying that only the elect do the will of God as manifested in the kingdom of light, grace, or salvation. Even those who turn from this KINGDOM of GRACE will and purpose of God still obey God's will in the ultimate scope of his sovereignty--it is just that they fulfull the opposite side of his will as manifested in the kingdom of darkness! So the only 'two wills' of God taught in scripture are his contrasting wills of salvation and reprobation. There is no 'permissive will'; God does not merely permit anything but positively determines and desires all things that happen!

Robert R. Higby

Hi Again:

Thanks for the e-mail Pilgrim ;-). I'll try to be more faithful to the Board.

Anyway, I must admit that I have been guilty of using the term "permissive will." But I think Pilgrim has a good point about the dangers of using that term. I have also seen/heard the term "preceptive will" used in lieu of "prescriptive will."

We all know that people violate God's commands and sin, gibberish tongues are in the visible church, women elders, etc. But we also know that 1Co 11:19 says: "For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you."

So amen on the prescriptive/preceptive will being violated yet still accomplishing God's sovereign, eternal, decretive will.

Good to be back. Thank you for your lieniency Pilgrim.

Brother Bret

Hey, I made a reply to Pilgrim's question a couple of days ago but the post must have gotten eaten. I didn't go back to check until the new post in the thread tonight, but probably I didn't remove the check box for preview. I've done that in the past.

I'm getting ready for my tomorrow's trip so I don't have time to repost it (write it again by remembering the thrust of the post) tonight. Shoot! Maybe, I can remember when I get back.

I must admit that I'm surprised this is not a more well known concept. I came across it in my first months of studying reformed theology when I read John Piper's article Are There Two Wills in God?. But Piper isn't alone in believing this. RC Sproul speaks of it in his book The Invisible Hand: Do all things really work for good?:

Thank you for your message - was the quote from Piper?

I did not know of this concept until a couple of years ago, as being confined to home (unable to attend a church) through illness, my husband was saying that it was being taught in the church where we were members. Since then, have heard of it from different sources.

Yours, in Christ, from English Rose

No, the quote was from Sproul's book that I mentioned. Sorry that I wasn't more clear about that. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

What do I think? Although I didn't give it much thought through the years, I was unsure how precise it was. It does appear as if using those terms the case can be made for God's Plan 'B' for a Christian. And truthfully, I give pause to that idea. Maybe, I still do not have a full understanding of God's decree. One reason why I give it a pause, not God's decree but the so-called Plan 'B' is this. I have never married. Looking back, I think I was put in certain situations whereby God was putting someone before me; but I always backed off. So, I'm thinking that in the perfect world as a Christian (for myself); I would be married with a family. Since I didn't completely trust God in that area; He has given me another path, so to speak.

Now back to God's decree - I have no problems with it in the big picture. But when it comes to Christians being hurt by other Christians sin, then how can we explain it. God hates divorce. So why has He decreed a Christian to divorce his/her spouse which affects the family so badly. He decreed them to come together as man and wife and that is a good thing. But, why would he decree for the marriage to be destroyed. He allows it but why would He decreed it as it goes against His own teaching. That is where I have my difficulties. If a spouse dies, then that isn't bothersome when saying God decreed that. But with a Christian flagrant sin, it does.

It almost goes back to the question - does God cause us to sin. We know that He does not. But, when we say that God decreed a Christian divorce, it comes awfully close.

Help

God has no plan B. If he did then he would not be sovereign over his plan A. God was sovereign though evil happened to Joseph (Gen 50:20), Job, and even to his own Son (Acts 2:23). All things work together for good--though us finite beings do not always see the good or the big picture as designed and carried out by God.

Christians hurt other Christians all the time--look at the OT--Joseph bothers hurt Joseph, Job's wife told him to curse God...., the disciples deserted Christ and so forth. However, in all this God is not the author of sin, though you might say squeezes the good from each incident, even at the cost of some "temporary" pain to us. Remember what Paul said,

What a great God we serve since even in evil he can make good for his own glory!.