The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Predestination

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> You misunderstood what John wrote. Effectual Grace, aka: Irresistible Grace is not "ongoing Grace give to those who respond", but to the contrary, it is a special, sovereign, deliberate, specific and prior act of God's grace, whereby the sinner is regenerated and effectually brought to faith in Christ. God is ALWAYS the grand Initiator of every act in salvation; not man and then God responding. In a more earthy style, God is the Thermostat and men are thermometers.

Saving grace cannot be "frustrated" because there is nothing man can do to possibly effect God's sovereign design and purpose. (cf. Ps. 110:3)

In His grace,

Kathy,



Unless one is regenerated they will always resist this call, so what appears to be free will is really not. We are only free to act within our nature and since our nature is totally depraved against the things of God, we do not actually have free will to accept Him in our old nature state.


Calvinist do not believe the effectual call can be frustrated. It is the I in TULIP - Irresistable Grace. Those who God has effectual called will come to Him. This grace is irresistable, not resistable (or frustrated) Only those who God has regenerated will respond to this calling through saving faith. The Reformed believes that regeneration precedes faith, not vice versa.

Since Hunt believes that man saves themselves through their faith, he thinks that Calvinism restricts the number of Christians in Heaven. Calvinists believe under Hunt's view, no one would be in Heaven. It is through God's Saving Grace that saves us; therefore under Hunt's scenario there would be none saved.

Hope this helps

Pilgrim,

I have a long way to go... to pursue this topic in its entirity... so I can’t answer to the sources you provided here, as well as previous.... because it will take me awhile to digest them.

But on this topic... the following verses somewhere (in my thinking) seem to apply... and I feel the need to post them.

Mar 7:26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.


Mar 7:27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] unto the dogs.


Mar 7:28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.


Mar 7:29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

Do you think this woman was ‘a dog’? Or do you think that something else was being conveyed... in the context of the Pharisees and the washing of cups, etc?

An Exegetical Study of Titus 2:11

Calling and Repentance

Myth of Free-Will

Hunt’s god doesn’t hunt. He limits God’s power to ALL. He states Christ died for everyman, but also that God’s grace is not powerful enough (efficacious) to all to whom it is given. In other words, Christ actually accomplished nothing on the Cross—but only made possibilities. But what does the Scripture say?


The Scriptures utterly oppose the teaching that Christ only died to make it possible to save us, but did not die to actually secure the salvation of anyone. Luke 19:10 tells us that Christ did not come to merely make salvation possible, but actually came "to seek and to save that which was lost." Christ did not come into the world to make all humans able to be saved, but came into the world to actually save people: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" (1 Tim 1:15).

Hunt merely presents a salvation that is a possibility, however Jesus does more than merely offer salvation, He makes it a definitive reality for His own. Hunt makes man the god of his own salvation. Who is the God of your salvation, you or God? Though there will be “an innumerable company in heaven from every tribe on earth, purchased by Jesus’ blood (Rev. 5:9-12),” it will be of God’s doing and not ours.

First.... this passage has nothing to do with the topic of "Predestination". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

Second, the CONTEXT tells us that the terms "children" and "[house] dogs" refer thusly:

children: Jews
dogs: Gentiles

The meaning of the text is that salvation must first come to the Jews and thereafter to the Gentiles. I can give you references for this truth if needed. In this particular passage, Jesus refers to her (race) as "house dogs" since they are not the physical chosen people to whom the promise of the Messiah was first to come. The Gentiles, even in the O.T. are never excluded, mind you but it was a matter or priority. And the Lord didn't exclude her (Gentiles) completely either as He said, "First let the children eat . . ." And I believe that this woman understood that as well, for rather than being totally put off having resigned herself to no possibility, rather she took what He said in a positive vane and went on to show that even house dogs get to eat of the crumbs that fall from the table.

So, the thrust of the passage is dealing with the order in which the Gospel message of salvation was to come; Jews first and then Gentiles.

In His grace,

Pilgrim,

Aren’t you saying that we are bound by our nature... how we are born. We are all born in sin... totally depraved... except the elect. I know you will disagree. They weren’t really born in a state of total depravity... because they were born in a state of total grace.

Are you saying the elect are regenerated at birth? Thus they are saved?

I have not understood that responding to Grace implies ‘saving oneself’

That the Calvinistic system is the only system that has finally understood this... tells me what?

I know you can tell where my struggles are... I am not saying that I have made up my mind and decided.

That little voice is telling me that Calvin over-thought this system.

(I need time ...if the above is a knee-jerk reaction... I need to go through the pros/cons)

Pilgrim,

Thanks for commenting on these verses. And I do understand them in the context you presented... BUT I cannot help but consider them appropriate.

I have heard that in the past one might have prayed "Lord, thank you that I was born a Jew"... or "Lord, thank you that I wasn't born a woman"... when we know that Jesus said he can 'raise these stones' to be children of Abraham.

At what point might one thank the Lord that one was born chosen looking around the room. Yes, I know the response is we should always be thankful for every gift. I don't know where I'm going with this.

Question: Aren’t you saying that we are bound by our nature... how we are born. We are all born in sin... totally depraved... except the elect. I know you will disagree. They weren’t really born in a state of total depravity... because they were born in a state of total grace.

Answer: ALL <------- are born under the burden of "Original Sin", i.e., 1) the guilt of Adam's transgression is imputed to them, and 2) inherit a corrupt (depraved) nature, thus ALL <------- are under the wrath of God and subject to condemnation. NO ONE is born "in a state of total grace". There is no such thing to be found in Scripture anywhere.


Question: Are you saying the elect are regenerated at birth? Thus they are saved?

Answer: <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> 1) Regeneration at birth is a rare exception and thus does not apply to 99.9999% of the human race. 2) No one is saved because they are regenerated. Regeneration makes one spiritual alive, a new predisposition/nature is created and thus they are able to comprehend the Gospel, their own need, their perilous state, the beauty and necessity of Christ and His work, the desire after righteousness, etc. One is ONLY saved after they are regenerated and are converted, i.e., repent of their sins and believe upon Christ.


What is nicknamed "Calvinism", for whatever reason historically that happened, can be essentially divorced from the man himself, for it is nothing more than biblical teaching put into an organized framework. The truths found in the Calvinistic system pre-date Calvin by a few thousand years. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> A person we would consider to be a "Calvinist" existed long before Calvin was born. Calvinism doesn't have its foundation in John Calvin nor any man or group of men. It is again, simply that system of truth, aka: Christianity which is found in Scripture.

Lastly, re: "I have not understood that responding to Grace implies ‘saving oneself’". Well, you misunderstood something because that simply isn't true nor did anyone here say that. The issue is WHY and/or HOW does someone respond to Grace (not sure what that means). As I explained elsewhere, albeit briefly, as Jesus also explained to Nicodemus in John 3, "Unless you are born again (from above) you cannot even see the kingdom of God" never mind respond to its overtures. And that new birth is again, a sovereign, secret, and monergistic work of the Holy Spirit who regenerates Who He will, when He wills and where He wills. There is nothing man can do in any way, shape or form to precipitate regeneration. Perhaps that's why it is known as "Sovereign Free Grace", ya think? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

Well, then you have a problem submitting to biblical CONTEXT! :sad: The passage is NOT "appropriate", i.e., it doesnt' speak to the matter of predestination. You cannot inject your own preconceived ideas into God's inspired infallible Word and hope to arrive at the truth. We've already spent days going over this with an individual here who is adamant in practicing "eisogesis" rather than "exegesis"! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

You aren't going to look around the room and see who was "born chosen"! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nono.gif" alt="" /> Applying this to oneself, when one is given assurance based upon biblical guidelines that a radical change has taken place within your soul, that sin is most offensive to you; both your own and that which is perceived in the world, that Jesus Christ is most lovely and your only hope in being able to appear before the thrice holy God, that your own personal holiness is a virtue to be most treasured, that all that you have and all that you look forward to you confess is a gracious and most undeserved gift of God's mercy, then..... your heart will most naturally offer up thanksgiving and adoration to God.

In His grace,

Excellent reply pilgrim ....And Mr. Pink is a very good source !

Kathy writes:


This was my big gray area too. It kept me from understanding just about anything else of God's sovereignty until someone put it this way to me, and the light came on <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" /> :

"Only Christians have free will," he said. "All others are enslaved." To back up this seemingly arrogant claim, he took me to Romans 6:6 and 12-18 and of course the very familiar "I end up doing what I don't want, and not doing what I should, who will free me from this body of death" passage in chapter 7:18-25. Paul describes our enslavement to sin and liberation in Christ.

Another way of looking at it is that people are only free to do what they can do. A male is not "free" to become pregnant because he is incapable of it. He is bound by his male nature. In (sorta kinda) the same way, sinners are bound to a totally corrupted nature and unable to avoid sinning in thought, word, and deed.

Christians, however, are free. Only Christians are free, because only Christ can set anyone free from the corruption and condemnation of sin (Romans 8).

Well, this is what finally helped turn the light on for me. I hope it helps you see it a little better too.

Still seeing "through a glass and darkly,"
Robin

Here's a whole 'nother way of looking at predestination: Matthew 18:2 and following says



So Jesus says conversion is like becoming a child. It makes no more sense taken literally than His words to Nicodemus, "You must be born again (John 3:7)." As confusing as that was to Nicodemus, Jesus' answer doesn't really seem to clarify things much to a casual reader of John chapter three. One should read the entire book of John to get a good sense of what the new birth really is. This comparison of conversion to "becoming a child" is perhaps a little easier to grasp, so here goes:

What's so great about children that the Lord should want us to become like them? Do you think it's the innocence of children that Jesus is talking about here? Absolutely not! For one thing, children are not innocent. No human is! But for another thing, we wouldn't we need a savior at all if we're innocent. The key is in verse 4. Jesus says, "Whoever humbles himself as this child." It is not that children are "innocent!" It is that children are dependent upon others and willing to accept from others what they cannot provide for themselves. They are wholly trusting because they are wholly dependent. That is humility. It also is a Biblical definition of saving faith!

What does it take for a person to become like a child then? An act of God?

Yes, exactly!

We can no more convert ourselves than we can reenter our mothers' womb and be born again. We are dependent on God even to make us become like children - realizing our dependence and helplessness and willingly accepting, with ongoing trust, the provision of our Father. Conversion - whether we put it in terms of "new birth" or in terms of "becoming like a child," is an act of God wrought upon unworthy people. What results from that work is confession of Jesus as Lord in that person's words and actions.

One does not make that confession in order to become a Christian, but the confession comes as a result of conversion! Open confession of Christ as Lord is surely a mark of any true Christian. But it is not a prerequisite outward behavior that God demands as in order to become a Christian. By insisting on an outward act "to receive Christ," many evangelists unwittingly add a new requirement to salvation which Christ did not command. We should be careful not to make the same mistake by insisting upon an exactly worded "sinner's prayer" that is theologically perfect, doctrinally accurate, and aesthetically pleasing; then judging the eternal destiny of others by that standard - instead of the standard that Christ Himself has set: Childlike dependency, simplicity; accepting, humble trust in God's provision. Salvation begins and ends with God. The resulting confession of Christ as Lord in word and deed is not to be mistaken as the means to salvation, but acknowledged as the result of the Holy Spirit's application of the Son's finished work upon those the Father has chosen.

The "P" Word (and I don't mean Presbyterian)

Let me begin by offering what Predestination is not. Predestination is not the idea that God looks down the corridor of time to the future, sees who will choose Christ, and thus "elects" them to salvation. Rather, it is God's choice of individuals, before Creation, to be redeemed from the curse of sin and set apart for Him. These people are inevitably converted to Christ and live for Him. They are kept by Him and for Him, and will be raised to everlasting life at the last day. The number of the elect is known to God, is certain, and cannot be changed. None will be lost, and every single one of the elect will be converted without fail, because Christ accomplished their salvation at Calvary. But there's a whole 'nother way to look at this complicated and awesome truth:

Once I ran away from home. I disappeared without a word for a couple of days. My father searched all over the city for me. He wasn't looking for just any kid who wanted to go home with him. He was looking and calling for me. No one else would do. I was his beloved son, I was the one Dad wanted. Dad wouldn't settle for any kid who happened to come along and say he'd go with Dad. Dad's heart and soul were after me. I was his choice, even though there were plenty of other runaway kids that would have been happy to go to my father's house.

That is the picture of election I want people to have. God's choice of us for Himself before the founding of the world is more awesome and gracious than simply a general call to "whosoever will." The will is the part of us that is bound to sin! An unregenerate sinner can no more choose Christ than a male can choose to get pregnant. It simply isn't in him to do so, even if he wished it more than anything. Your heavenly Father chose you - personally, His beloved child.

-Robin

Robin,

This is a very beautiful post. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />


Your father found you while you were still in your sin (running away) and he found you whether you liked it or not.

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Robin,

I'm wondering if you have had the pleasure of reading the book, Election, Love Before Time, by Kenneth Johns [P&R Publishing]? This is the perspective that he takes and expounds and expands upon it in a glorious fashion. Of all the books I have read on the subject of Predestination/Election, this would have to be at the top of my list for recommended reading.

In His grace,

What impresses me much about the Highway forum is the overall diligence concerning study, and I believe sincerity and humility of the members. In trying to understand the Truth, in light of ALL of the revealed Word and this discussion (TULIP)I am processing many things said and unsaid, here and elsewhere.

To date, Calvin-ism to the dismay of its supporters bears the name Calvinism.

Beloved57’s thread is telling. The Gospel (that has always been the Gospel) is perfect, best said and realized... through Calvin. The Gospel=Calvin... Calvin=the Gospel.

* * * * * *

Spurgeon’s answer to Beloved57

"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what is nowadays called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the Gospel... unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah. Nor do I think we can preach the Gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of his elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend the Gospel which allows saints to fall away after they are called."
- Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834-1892)


To date (Day 3) Becoming a Calvinist is (surely many things); One of them is that likely everyone who came to the “TULIP” did so with an utmost humility, seeking to better understand God’s Word and the mystery of GRACE. Especially from other backgrounds like RCC or Easy-123 denominations... TBN, Benny Hinn, etc. and became convicted in their yearning that Repentance is a Gift -- and seeing clearly that their nature is not good but is at enmity with God... and maybe ‘getting it’ for the first time, in the deepest way, that Repentance is a Gift. Thus (my guess), believed that Limited Atonement explains this. All the time... All along, any sincere hearer is humbled, and should be rightly so. Jesus said the gate is narrow and to enter by the narrow gate. I contend that this humbling revelation and other revelations via God’s Word are known by other elect Christians in other denominations.

But, to date, what I taste here is often science, gnosis, and dissection. Like hearing a song, and picking away at it... analyzing each nuance and noise and note; and something is lost. Become a Calvinist and you will join the intellectual discussion that never ends... TULIP, Calvin, Spurgeon, Pink... defending isms and defining isms.... and this will be The discussion. Simple plain speech is irrelevant and is perfected now. Paul, John through the eyes of... Calvin. You will spend your time defending Calvin.

(This is where I'm at with this presently)