The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Regeneration without means

You hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


What are everone's thoughts on regeneration. The historical reformed position is a process which entails more than just quickening. Calvin himself included justification, repentance, faith under the umbrella of regeneration. Recently i have become convinced That regeneration is distinct from all of these and is not a process, but an immediate supernatural act of God on His elect without means. Now there are times that it does accompany the Word, but Gospel regeneration is as detrimental as decisional regeneration.

Here is my position:

Regeneration is simply the activity of the Holy Spirit which happens immediately with no means whatsovever. We are 100% unconscious of this and is different than conversion.

There is a good article on the site from Samuel Hopkins that speaks about this.

What ya'll think?

It is true that in some of the older writings you can find where the term regeneration is used in a way which is "broad" in scope and includes conversion. But as time went on and theologians gave more time to studying such things regeneration was also considered in a "narrow" sense, i.e., the one-time immediate and silent work of the Holy Spirit wherein the very nature of a sinner is re-created; given spiritual life, etc. Synonyms for regeneration are "new birth", "born again", "born from above", "made alive", "resurrection", and others.

If you have a copy of Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology, he has a good section on this subject speaking of regeneration used in the "broad" and "narrow" senses. Today, when most speak of regeneration it is in the narrow sense and the result of that regeneration is called "conversion" in which man is cognizant of what is happening and/or takes an active part, e.g., conviction, confession, repentance and believing on Christ.

The historic Reformed position has most generally been (hypers excepted) that regeneration involves the use of means, i.e., the preaching of the Gospel which is the "power of God unto salvation". (Rom 1:16) Regeneration in Scripture is most always associated with and happens in conjunction with the Word of God. An exception, for example, is John the Baptist. But again, this is the rare exception and certainly not the rule. Another aspect of regeneration which is held by the majority of the Reformed Churches, at least in the writings of those representative of the various denominations, for example, Charles Hodge > Presbyterian, John Owen > Congregational, etc., is that conversion occurs immediately after regeneration in distinction from a period of time occurring between regeneration and conversion.

I am in agreement with the majority on this one; regeneration is a supernatural one-time work of the Holy Spirit which is unknown and not experienced by the individual. Immediately after regeneration conversion follows and is a fruit of it. The Holy Spirit most always works regeneration in conjunction with the Word of God.

In His grace,

Did you read the article on this site by Hopkins?

I am also confused by you saying you are in the majority, but appear to be agreeing with what I say. Is regeneration without means the majority or the minority? I thought I would be considered outside the traditional majority opinion on this.

I find a teaching that speaks of regeration as a process wrong and blends it with conversion. I dont believe you have regenerate people walking around for years without hearing the Word, but one must be brought to life before given the light. I am not sure of the immediacy of conversion after though. Paul says the Gospel brings light to life.

I understand regeneration as a “quickening” or “to be made alive.” That which was dead is now made alive. This is not a progressive thing. One cannot be made partially alive and then later become completely alive. Either you’re “born again” or you’re not.

I believe regeneration can and generally does take place during the preaching of the Gospel and enables one to respond by repentance and faith. However, one must consider the examples of Jeremiah and John the Baptist. They both appear to be endowed in a special way by the Holy Spirit prior to their birth.

How best can we understand the work of the Holy Spirit in these cases?


Wes

ex. Like Lazarus. He was made alive first and then He heard the words of Christ saying, "Come Forth," Oh, excuse me, "Lazarus, Come Forth" otherwise the whole graveyard would have come forth. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

1) <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> I am the one who put that article on The Highway. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

2) Sorry for the confusion. I agree that regeneration is an immediate act but disagree that it is without means. There are a couple of exceptions given in Scripture, Jeremiah and John the Baptist, but they are NOT paradigmatic. God's dealing with those two individuals was "outside" the norm and for a very special purpose.

As far as the immediacy of conversion following regeneration, the way you have stated your view is that which is confusing. You clearly state that you do not hold, and I agree, that a person can be regenerated and then walk around for years before they are converted. Yet you also state that you aren't sure about the "immediacy" of conversion following regeneration. Is there some "spiritual limbo" you have in mind that stands between regeneration and conversion? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratch1.gif" alt="" />

The purpose of regeneration is to enable a sinner to be reconciled to God through union with Christ by faith. It is through the preaching/reading of the Gospel that the Holy Spirit works regeneration so that the quickened individual is convicted of sin and then responds to that message of salvation by faith in Christ. A new nature isn't something that exists apart from its intended purpose; salvation. In the Scriptures we consistently read that Christ was set forth in the Gospel, the Holy Spirit regenerated [explicitly stated or implied] and consequently the hearer(s) responded to the Gospel immediately thereafter.

3) See above re: time gap between regeneration and conversion.

Part of the confusion which is quite common, actually, is due to the working definition of the term regeneration as used by some of the older writers and those of later writers. As I tried to explain to you before, the earlier writers sometimes defined regeneration as a broad term which included both the quickening/re-creating of the soul; impartation of the new nature, AND conversion. Later, regeneration was defined more narrowly and distinguished between the monergistic work of the Holy Spirit, quickening and the resulting conversion of it. There is no real contradiction between the earlier usage of the term and the latter usage. Again, it is simply that the earlier writers used the term in a much broader sense, although they did make a distinction between the actually quickening and the later and consequent conversion.

Lastly, I have no idea what purpose you wrote, "Paul says the Gospel brings light to life." or how it relates to the relationship between regeneration and conversion? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" /> Can you explain what you are trying to prove, if in fact you are trying to prove anything from that statement?

In His grace,

Then the article disagrees with you!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

When I say without means, no Gospel is needed for the Holy Spirit to regenerate a person. Here it is in a nutshell.

Spirit regeneration is immediate without employing sinful man preaching the word.

Gospel conversion is a truth also.

The quote from Paul was used to prove this. The Gospel brings light to life. One must be spiritually resurrected by the Holy Spirit alone, before light can shine on the new mind and heart.

AS far as a time lag, I am not even considering John the Batist or Jeremiah. The Holy Spirit preceedes the word and prepares the soil. It could be one minute or any determined time by God alone. And i am protecting an absurd notion that God wuld regenerate a person for years without giving him the word for conversion. But God does prepare the soil before the seed is planted. Exactly the opposite of of hardening, God softens. So when God would send a prophet to preach the word, he would regenerate those whom He deisred prior to the prophet speaking and harden those who he desired

Call it preceeding grace or any other label !!!!! I do nto consider responding in conviction, repentance, through faith any part of regeneration, but it is conversion.

Joe that smacks of prevenient Grace which appears to me just a hop skip and a jump to the idea that God "softens" everyone and that our conversion is by our own "free" will.

I'm afraid that other than the exceptions listed that I am going to agree with Pilgrim and the others that regeneration normally comes about the ordained means that God has decreed ie: the preaching of the Word.

Joe,

Actually, I agree with Hopkins in 95% of what he wrote. I'm a little tentative in regard to his view (typical among some Puritans) concerning "preparation" being necessary for regeneration. However, methinks you are misunderstanding what he wrote in regard to means. He makes two points clear:

1) Regeneration is done without means, i.e., there is nothing that effects regeneration, e.g., some rite, ordinance, sacrament etc., nor even the Word of God itself effects regeneration.

2) Regeneration does not occur without means, i.e., it does not occur as you seem to believe apart from the Word of God. For as I stated, which agrees totally with what Hopkins also wrote, regeneration is done for the sole purpose of bringing about conversion. And without the Word of God, conversion would be impossible.

The introductory remarks sum up what Hopkins believed:


And in the article itself, Hopkins goes into some detail, e.g.,

By "preparatory", he means that which accompanies regeneration or that which exists just prior to the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration.

Regeneration and conversion are mutually exclusive yet inseparable. Again, regeneration is brought about for the exclusive purpose of producing conversion. And conversion cannot occur without the knowledge of sin, of guilt, of judgment, of justification, of Christ in the Gospel, etc.

If there is to be seen anything "preparatory" it is in the circumstances which God has brought about in regard to the sinner, e.g., time, place, individuals, etc. As Hopkins rightly wrote, one is either unregenerate or regenerate. There is no other spiritual state which man possesses; e.g., "prevenient grace"; a semi-spiritual condition. One is either spiritually dead (man's natural condition) or spiritually alive, aka: regenerate.

In His grace,

That paragraph sums it up rather nicely. You've really said a lot in just a few words. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" />


Wes

There are distinctions within the scope of prevenient grace. There are some reformers who held to the belief that i see scripture espousing, that the Holy Spirit preceedes the word in order to prepare the elect person to receive it with joy and have root. I am in no way espousing a belief that grace is actie in all indiscriminately.

I will call it preparatory grace, Spirit ressurection, Spirit regeneration.

Pilgrim:

I mean not to sound like I believe as some PBer's would that a regenrate person can sit in from of a pole and worship it for years. And still be considered regenerate

We are regenerated which is the cause and the effect is conversion. But is there a rule of thumb that there is no lag? I dont see scripture supporting this that .

Regeneration will make one hunger and thirst for the Word of God.

I am against doctrinal/Gospel regeneration. And regeneration as a process. So when I say immediate without means, i think we are closer than we may think.

Joe,

Yes, I think there is more than sufficient evidence in Scripture to support immediate conversion consequent to regeneration. Just read all the accounts recorded in the book of Acts. I'm sure you are more than familiar with most of them and thus I see no need to give chapter/verse. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It is very possible we are closer than what might appear to be otherwise. I would like to ask, however, if you would define "doctrinal/Gospel regeneration". I'm not sure what you mean by that.

In His grace,

That the Word alone causes regeneration. the work of the Spirit is not the cause. Many believe Gospel preaching can be the cause of regenration. Scripture never speaks as such. God would never employ sinful man to be the means of bringing from death to life.

Doctrinal regeneration is what Darryl was speaking here. There is no evidence of immediate full knowledge upon regeneration.

Hey.... thanks for the excellent clarification. Yes, I would also reject both of those errors which cannot be supported from Scripture. The Word of God (preached/read) is the means (vehicle) which the Holy Spirit generally uses and accompanies in regeneration quite naturally since it is Christ that the regenerated sinner first beholds, falls before and embraces by faith. But the Word of God has no power in and of itself. It is the Spirit working through the Word that is effectual.

Methinks we are on the same page with the exception of the matter of "preparatory grace". Those few Puritans that held to that view seem to contradict themselves for most all of them, e.g., Hopkins, believed that there is no "intermediate" spiritual state between unregenerate and regenerate. Without regeneration, an individual is always and forever at enmity with God and possesses an innate hatred of God and all that is good. Even the message of the Gospel is "foolish" to him. As I wrote before, the only "preparation" I can see in Scripture is in regard to circumstances which has nothing to do with a sinner's ability to partially hear, see, take interest in the things, of God, etc. Sinners are by nature, spiritually dead, aka: totally depraved until at which time they are quickened by the Spirit.

In His grace,