The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Mark 4: 11-12

Recently in our church homegroup, I was branded as being a Calvinist. As I was unsure of what I was being accused of, I did some research and found that the accusation was probably correct. I am having difficulty with a number of teachings I am encountering in my Christian walk and I am going through a phase of exploring the details of what I really believe. So please be patient if I seem to be off the track that is well known to some of you.

Could anyone answer this question for me?
In Mark 4:11-12, Jesus explained why he spoke in parables - basically so that certain people would not be able to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of God - otherwise they would repent and be forgiven. If the people Jesus didn’t want to understand were not called by God, surely they wouldn’t be able to understand even if He presented His point in a straight forward way. This scripture could imply that if the Gospel had been presented in a straight forward way, those that God hadn’t chosen would have been saved!

Thanks for your help!

Ivo,

First, welcome to the Discussion Board. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I can see how one might conclude that if Jesus had spoken in a straight forward manner rather than using parables, everyone might have understood what He was saying and thus repent. But of course, that would be in direct contradiction to other clear passages of Scripture which teach that no man is able to repent unless the ability is first given by God, aka: regeneration, new birth, born again. Further, the Scripture says that all men by nature reject the truth no matter how clearly and straight forward it is presented to them and even when it is revealed within them. (cf. Jh 3:19, 20; 6:44; 10:25, 26; Rom 1:16ff; et al)

I think William Hendriksen in his NT Commentary on Mark, p. 154 explains this passage nicely:

In His grace,

Thanks Pilgrim. I will have to meditate on that for a bit! V9 in Mat 13 is interesting - "He who has ears, let him hear". I suppose this is a reference to to those whom the Holy Spirit is enlightening? - Those that God is calling.

Ivo,


This is not going to be the first time you hear this accusation. Those of us who believe in the Doctrines of Grace and Sola Scriptura are always tattooed with this supposedly nasty "image". Personally I now find this name-calling to be comforting and almost comical (if it wasn't so deadly deceitful). I also believe this to be proof positive of an anti-scriptural bias and prophetic as to where our post-modern church is headed. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

Welcome to the club, brother <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Ivo,

The Markan passage 4:11, 12 is complementary to Matt 13:9 as they are dealing with two different prospectives. Mark is addressing God's sovereignty in salvation and Matthew addresses man's responsibility in salvation. In Mark, it is God Himself Who "prevents", i.e., withholds enlightenment from the majority of sinners and grants it to those whom He chooses. God is under no obligation to save anyone; another distasteful truth which most abhor. In Matthew, it is the sinner's obstinacy against the truth and inherent hatred of it that prevents them from comprehending the truth and their need of redemption. (Jh 3:19; Eph 2:1-5; 4:17, 18) Thus we have two sides of the one coin revealed.

The "enlightenment" spoken of in these texts and which you refer to in your question is what we call the "inward call". This is part of regeneration. The Holy Spirit recreates the soul, enlivens it from its natural spiritually dead state which enables a sinner to truly comprehend, hear, see, desire and choose that which is good and true. The preaching/reading of the Word, regardless of who delivers it, yes even the Lord Christ Himself is not efficacious in and of itself. But it is the Holy Spirit working with and through the Word in the hearts of those whom God has determined to save that it has a positive affect.

For more on this distinction between the "outward call" and the "inward call" see here: The Call That Brings a Response, by Paul Helm.

In His grace,

Pilgrim,

In my discussions with other Christians that's the part they will not accept - (the fact that we will not respond is of course because we freely chose sin over God) - but the part of God not granting them the true desire (internal call) or leaving them over to themselves/blinded by sin and ultimately destined for an eternity in hell is the aspect of Reformed Doctrine they will not accept, and from a humanistic-carnal perspective it's understandable (I think we all have struggled with Limited Atonement at one time or another).

But Pilgrim,

what seperates one who sits under the truth of Reformed Doctrine and is saved from one who is not. This brings me back to my original post - is this simply a mystery and a product of divine choosing.

If you don't mind, let me get personal - how did you know you were saved? - what is it to know you have been regenerated? Can you describe this experience?

thanks!

ajc

Actually, the problem isn't Limited Atonement, nor is it even Unconditional Election (aka: Predestination), albeit those two doctrines surely have their enemies. What is most problematic (and this is many times not even consciously realized) is the doctrine of Total Depravity. It is this doctrine which gets the old blood boiling because it presents man as being totally wicked in every thought, word and deed. It portrays man as the worst of all that exists on the earth. And further, it teaches that man is totally incapable of improving his condition and/or situation. In short, it reveals the total helplessness and hopelessness of every human being from the moment of conception, we all being under the wrath and righteous judgment of God. You see, it totally removes any and all possibility of self-determination thus making men totally reliant upon something outside of themselves. Unless the LORD God takes pity on any individual and breathes life into their living-dead beings according to His good pleasure, there is not one single individual who can escape judgment nor be reconciled to Him. It is only by GRACE that we are saved. And it is only through Christ that God can or will have anything to do with us dirty creatures.

Our brother and the Apostle Paul summed it up very nicely when he wrote:

Romans 9:6-16 (ASV) "But [it is] not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac - for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

It is solely the eternal electing grace of God (Sola Gratia) that makes any man to differ. There is no efficacy in the preaching of the Word, reading the Bible, praying fervently day and night, doing works of charity, etc., etc... It is ALL of grace; Sovereign Free Grace!! [cf. 1Cor 3:7 and See my article and chart here: Do you REALLY Believe That Salvation is by Grace Alone?].

Let's first establish something of fundamental importance. No experience should be used as a "standard" by which to determine one's own, never mind anyone else', spiritual state; salvation. Why? Because the Holy Spirit deals with us as individuals and not robots. We are all created in the image of God and share many similarities. But there are various differences in our personalities, cultural influences, upbringing, etc. I am speaking now specifically of one's "Conversion". The matter or regeneration is a mute issue because that is the secret work of the Holy Spirit of which one is not privy. It is the results of regeneration which man experiences . . . "The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (Jh 3:8)

Some, like myself go through a very dynamic and radical conversion, i.e., there is a deep and painful conviction of sin and an equal exaltation of joy in "seeing" the loveliness and sufficiency of Christ as well as the unspeakable joy of having one's sins forgiven. However, there are no less those whose conversion is "quiet" yet no less sure. Yes, I believe there will ALWAYS be some measure of conviction of sin. For without conviction, there is nothing to drive a sinner to repentance and to see forgiveness of sins. But it would be wrong to quantify conviction and so make some kind of minimal "standard" by which one could judge another. If you haven't already, do read this new added article to The Highway here: The Great Change.

The question, "How does one know they are saved?" is a question about "Assurance" in regard to one's personal experience and life. The question can be answered objectively too, of course, by learning what the biblical doctrine is on the subject, e.g., there are certain necessary things which must take place and/or exist in an individual before it can be said they are "saved". Some of those elements would be, conviction of sin, godly repentance, a true living faith (fiducia) in Jesus Christ and a life which is consistent with that faith which belongs to someone who has been regenerated.

See also these articles:
- How We May Know We are Born of God, by B.B. Caldwell

- True and False Assurance, by Thomas Brooks

- Faith and Assurance, by J.C. Ryle

- The Failure of Emotional Religion, by Norman H. Street

- The Almost Christian, by George Whitefield.

In His grace,

Thanks Pilgrim,

I tend to throw a lot of questions at you but you are the most readily available if I need a sound response on the Reformed POV - I should spring for a cap or t-shirt or something to show my gratitude.

One more question:

in debating with non-Reformed Christians it is quite difficult to bring them to truth - even on an intellectual level - as we know it.

It usually comes down to - well if I'm not elect I'm screwed anyway - even if I pray for salvation it's futile because if my name isn't written in the book of life it's a lost cause. They will often tell me that this doctrine would be a major source of frustration (& possibly even despair) for them if they believed it.

Of course for those who know they are elect the doctrine is not a problem but is actually a major source of comfort.

But for those (even they who are elect and do not yet know it) who are on the outside, unconditional election seems downright catastrophic.

what do you think?

What part does conscience play in the totally depraved? I have always been taught that conscience is a faculty of the spirit; a spirit which is nevertheless dead to God and unable to commune with Him.

It seems to me that God was doing a lot of preparatory work in me a long time before I heard the gospel and responded. I had a lot of difficulty with my conscience!! Whether the conscience work was done by God I do not know. I started asking God to make me a better person when I was only 9 or 10 without understanding the way of salvation. I do remember when I first heard the gospel, the fact I had to receive Christ as Lord was a real stumbling block. The Holy Spirit had to work in me to enable me to believe and receive His offer.

Once I became a Christian, I found that the Holy Spirit, over time, has shown me how totally worthless I am in my natural self. He is my only hope. Without him I have absolutely nothing. This is one of the reasons the reformed doctrine makes sense to me.

I know other Christians (unfamiliar with reformed doctrine), to whom the Holy Spirit has revealed the total depravity of their flesh but I know many others, particularly the younger ones, who have not experienced His work in this way.

Amongst my Christian friends, the biggest issue would be predestination - not only in terms of who will be saved but that God has pre-ordained all things - times and places etc.
To me, I get great comfort from this. But others I know, find this most disturbing.

I totally hear what you are saying Ivo - most people run kicking and screaming when they are exposed to Reformed Doctrine while I found it to be a relief and a real source of hope and comfort!

The Holy Spirit is a great influence in both the elect and reprobate in regard to conscience. For the reprobate, it is the Spirit who restrains their depravity and sinfulness so that they do what could be called, relative "good works", i.e., they are not allowed to fully express their depravity upon others. One of the most interesting passages in Scripture, IMHO, which illustrates this is found here:

Genesis 20:2-6 (ASV) "And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister. And Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, because of the woman whom thou hast taken. For she is a man's wife. Now Abimelech had not come near her. And he said, Lord, wilt thou slay even a righteous nation? Said he not himself unto me, She is my sister? And she, even she herself said, He is my brother. In the integrity of my heart and the innocency of my hands have I done this. And God said unto him in the dream, Yea, I know that in the integrity of thy heart thou has done this, and I also withheld thee from sinning against me. Therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

In this passage we see that the heathen have no warrant to boast about any alleged virtue they might have, for it is the Spirit of God alone Who is responsible for anything that they might do that could be construed as "good"; i.e., on a horizontal (human) plane.

As far as "preparatory work", it is true that the Spirit often influences the elect sometimes long before He regenerates them. But it must be maintained that during this period of "preparation" the sinner is still spiritually dead and thus totally incapable of recognizing the Spirit's work on, in and through them. In short, it would be wrong to conclude that such individuals have some measure of salvation before they are actually regenerated. There are many who exhibit great sorrow for their sinful acts (cf. 2Cor 7:9, 10; Heb 12:14-17) yet are far from God and have no real interest in Him; dead people do not truly seek after God in anyway shape or form. (Rom 3:11)

Lastly, and briefly since this is off-topic, re: predestination and the rejection of the doctrine by some you know who will not embrace that grand biblical doctrine of God as God . . . If God has not ordained all things, then He would have no right to be called God. For the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe is He who has determined all things after the counsel of His own will, according to the Scriptures. (cf. Ps 33:11; 135:6; Dan 4:35; Isa 46:9, 10; Acts 3:23; 4:27; Rom 11:33-36; et al)

There are quite a number or articles on The Highway website that deal with the doctrine of predestination (foreordination, foreknowledge, etc.), including some which answer most of the popular objections. You can access them directly by clicking here: Predestination.

In His grace,

"most people run kicking and screaming when they are exposed to Reformed Doctrine"

I find this to be the case too. It's discouraging sometimes eh? I have several friends now who all say they are Christians. I cannot say one way or the other. One is a Seventh day adventist (very legalistic) two are charismatic (which I find to be wonderful friends, but actually seem to be either intimidated by me, or sort of look down their nose at me LOL.) One of them actually did admit to me that they felt I was "stomping all over them" when we discussed doctrine. I was very suprised when they admitted that they were wrong about that.. and that they realized it was because they didn't know why they believed what they believed, and were intimidated at my "bible knowledge." Well.. I don't know the bible as much as I should.. not anywhere near that.. but it goes to show how people blindly believe what they want, or don't *want* to know the truth. This person gets very hot under the collar when I point out scriptures like Ezekiel 36.. how it is God who does all of the work, for God's glory.. and not for ours! I was happy though.. this person actually read through the passage and had to agree. Most won't even read it in front of you. They just disagree without knowing!

The other charismatic friend said they asked their pastor about reformed/calvinistic doctrine. Their pastor said, "we believe the same thing, we just express it differently." (i.e. the doctrine of perseverence of the saints) <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" />

Anyway.. just rambling now. I know what you're saying. Later.... Lord willing..

Michele

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> I hear ya and I've heard that objection and dozens upon dozens more over the years, all of which are empty because they are contrary to biblical teaching.

1) There is no basis for anyone to conclude that they are reprobate and thus consigned to hell no matter what they do. The decrees of election and reprobation belong to the secret counsel of God Who has not published a list of names for all to see. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

2) Even if one has been predestined to damnation, that does not relinquish them from being responsible to a) make use of the means of grace or b) to be obedient to the moral law of God. Those who are reticent in doing either only show themselves worthy of damnation. For "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" . . . thus it is through the ordained means that the Spirit works in the heart of those who will be saved. Put another way.. God ordains the means as well as the end!!

Methinks you should read Boettner's Objections: Answered, particularly #4 which addresses the specific objection above. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Amen Brother! Thanks for the references - there is some good stuff here.

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