The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum All Mixed Up

Welcome to the Board!

First, re: "inside vs. outside the cup" . . . while it is true that the state of one's heart is more determinative of one's salvation, that which is "outside" is most always indicative of what resides on the "inside". Yet, neither that which is inside nor outside is actually that which secures salvation but rather an "alien righteousness", i.e., the imputed righteousness of Christ which evokes God's judicial declaration of "not guilty" upon a sinner who has faith. (cf. Luther's marvelous summary in: simul iustus et peccator). Sanctification is the application and continual working of the indwelt Spirit of God of one's justification. (cf. Rom 6; James 2:20ff) Salvation is ALL of grace for God has foreordained both the means as well as the end of all those whom He has predestinated to salvation in Christ. (cf. Rom 8:29, 30; Eph 1:4-13)

Methinks you have indeed misunderstood my position. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Salvation, from beginning to end is all of grace; i.e., God's work. But this should not be reduced and errantly so to the popular notion of "Let go and let God!", which bifurcates and even in some circles denies man's responsibility to persevere in the faith, to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling. This "working out" is made possible because of the Spirit "Who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13) But it isn't God who repents, believes nor works. The individual is an active participant in sanctification and is also responsible to do so. Failure to persevere would be an indication that the Spirit is not present; i.e., regeneration, conversion and justification has not occurred.

I hope this makes things clearer for you at least as to what my position is. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bigglasses.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Yeah! And I would not have you think that I subscribe to just "let go and let God," in any sense that we are mere automatons (hate that term). I subscribe to something that I do not think contradicts you. I would say it like this. We are passive participants in our sanctification. You are quite correct that it is the Spirit that enables us to perservere. And, that is exactly what I mean by passive participant. We do the repenting, that is true, just as we do the believing, but it is not without the will and the power of Christ who lives in us.

When Jesus said that if we believe we have eternal life, the word is, if I understand it correctly, an on going and future sense. The term used earlier in John for received is similar and indicates both passive and active receiving. We do the believing, but it is His faith in us by which we believe. He gives and by that gift we receive. Repentence also is a gift.

What confuses young believers, and unbelievers alike is what the Scripture describes as the two becoming one flesh. It is He in us and we in Him and He in the Father, so that we are all together in one place. That meaning, that there is no such thing as not perservering in the Faith for a believer.

You are right, the ideal is that what is inside the cup should be reflected by what is outside. But the inside has already been cleaned, "You are already clean by the word that I have spoken to you." There is no more cleaning of the inside of the cup that has to be done, it has been done for us in Christ. The only thing that is being cleansed is the outside. This is what is confusing for most. When the Scripture commands that we put to death the flesh, most try to do it by the flesh. When we put the flesh to death by the Spirit, then it is He who does it. What we must realize is that we are commanded to make the outside of the cup clean, but it is he who decides what gets cleansed. This by no means means that we can be slothful, or caloused in regard to sin. That would indeed indicate that we have not the Spirit. Our reaction to sin should be grief, the same grief that the Holy Spirit has.

I would invite you to visit David and the Psalms. The freedom that we have does not come from the cleanliness of the out side of the cup. Rather, it comes from what the Lord has declared is on the inside. As to outward appearance, it is not the outside of the cup the Hall of Famers of Hebrews 11 were commended for. They were commended for perservering in the Faith inspite of what evidence appeared on the outside.

I have heard this many times, that the outside is indicative of the inside and I am always reminded of the sinner in the temple. The Pharisee looks at the outside and judges wrongly. I do not believe that there are no changes in a believer, but if we reduce our sanctification to what we can see, we will find ourselve again in bondage to the flesh, now excusing, no accusing.

Luther's quote is indeed appropriate. I think, however, that he would agree that our sanctification is complete and being worked out in time. I have a burden for those who think they are something and are not. I have seen the discrimination that is fostered by programmed teaching in the Church, namely things like Experiencing God, Master Life, Spiritual Warfare, that all lead to a false spiritual vs carnal Christianity. I do not deny that there are those who act carnally. It is always amazing how those who think they are spiritual respond to their carnal brothers, carnally, especially after they have gone through one of those exercises.

Perserverance is not marked by whether we continue in sanctifcation, that is, the the discipline of the flesh. Paul said to Timothy, bodily exercise profits little. It is marked by whether we are saved in eternity, and that we know by the Spirit in us. It is not a question of whether or not the Spirit is in us. We either know, or we do not.

Seventh Day Adventists find themselves in doubt about this always. The question whether or not they are caught up on their confession and repentance. Leviticus clues us in on a very important principle in the openning chapters. There we find that the Jews we held guilty of even the sins that they did not know that they had committed. The problem with judging by our behavior is that we do not know if we are perservering or not by that standard. It is not the the Jews under the law were without culpability for unknown sins, they had to perform sacrifices for them even if they did not know. The same is true of us, though we are not under the Law, a sacrifice has already been made for us. It by no means bifucates or even denies our responsibility, it in fact requires it. For we are his disciples if indeed we suffer with him.

I do not know if this helps. I think we are on the same page except for a few of the letters are blurred.

In any case, thank you for your welcome and the gentle heart that you display in your responses.

I have no clue as to how to get around on these here new fangled puters. Maybe you could give me some references or helps to how you import quotes and edit and so forth. These little windows are really hard to move around in! Any good sites that might help me learn what all these buttons do!

Well, yes and no, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> it all depends upon the text. Scripture often speaks of things as "already, but not yet", i.e., there is a present reality but also a future reality. Thus we read that those who believe will have, eternal life, i.e., something to anticipate in the future. (cf. Jh 3:15; Rom 2:7; 1Tim 6:19; Titus 3:7; Jude 1:21) And, yet believers now have/possess eternal life. (cf. Jh 6:54; 10:28; 1Jh 3:15; 5:11, 13)

Here we are in disagreement. That "already clean" (Jh 13:10; 15:3) that Jesus spoke of to His disciples is in reference to justification and not sanctification. (cf. Rom 5:1) The context of the chapter 15 passage bears this out for Jesus continues in His exhortation by telling the disciples that they must abide in Him and by doing so they will "bear much fruit", aka: sanctification. Again, Scripture teaches an "already but not yet" sanctification, i.e., there is a "Definitive sanctification" and a "Progressive sanctification". The Lord Christ is our sanctification. (1Cor 1:30) Yet, and also, we are to be sanctified by the putting of the old man/nature. (1Thess 4:3, 4; 2Thess 2:13) Believers are gradually being conformed, on the inside and which is reflected on the outside, into the image of Christ. (1Cor 1:9, 10; Rom 6, 7; 1Pet 2:2; 2Pet 1:4; 3:18)

There is some truth to this. However, "fruit", which is observable, is indicative of the tree that bears it. (Psa 1:3; 92:13, 14; Matt 7:17, 18; 12:33-35; Lk 13:6-9; Gal 5:22-24; Phil 1:11) There is a direct correlation between what a man thinks and how he acts, albeit not always consistently. (cf. Prov 23:7)

There is lots of help available to you. First of all, as mentioned in the "Welcome" PM (Private Message), which you received when you first logged in here, there is relevant information to be found in the FAQ section (see the link at the top of every page). And, likewise in the User Guide. Further, there are quite a number of thread chock full of instructional information about many of the special features of the Board to be found in the New Features Forum. And lastly, you can always post questions in the HELP Forum. There is also a forum specifically provided where you can try out some of these features, e.g., inserting a "Smiley", adding "Quotes", either manually or by clicking on the Quote item found in the "Advanced UBBT Code" box (click the down arrow on the bottom right column of features), etc., called the TESTING 1, 2, 3... forum. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Thanks Pil, I get so lost in the mechanics.

When Jesus told Peter that Satan had demanded permission to sift you like wheat, the Lord's comfort was not that the tree would produce the fruit, but the root, "but I have prayed for you that you faith many not fail; and you when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers. You see, it is as Paul described: Jesus is our salvation, both our justification and sanctification. Fruit is not an indicator of the tree, but its root. "You can do nothing of your own." So, that "you are already clean," is not just our justification, it is also our sanctification. The word believe as you have said correctly is a now, and not yet, but it is also since the beginning of the world, works that have been predestined by the Father that we will walk in them now, and it is an already accomplished thing from eternity past to future. This is the perserverance of the saints, their sanctification. It is not an if, but a that you will, no matter the circumstance which is what is demonstrated in Peter.

The fruit of the tree is not determined by the tree. Unfruitful branches are taken away by the Father, he is the puner, not we by our own will or power. Fruit will not appear by the will of the tree. It is conditioned by the root, the supply of water, nutrients of the soil, the rain, sun, seasons and stresses in the environment. The tree is just the vessel that the nature that is in it is bringing its will into being in concert with He who rules all things after the council of his own will. He works all these things which is why perserverance is the only possibility for the believer. The believer will perservere because Christ did it for him, he will be sanctified, because Christ sanctified himself on his behalf. This is our freedom.

Paul makes two claims. First that we do not have the freedom to chose sin. The second that we do not have the freedom to will the good even if we wish. There is a direct correlation between what a man thinks and what he is, the problem is that we have two natures, one that thinks like the devil and one that thinks like the Son of God. You may not agree with that, and all that I can say is that it is the love of God that has been shed abroad in our hearts, that is the love of the Son. Now, if I am not mistaken the Son never contemplates evil such that he can choose to do one or the other. In our new nature it is impossible that we who have been crafted, though not yet perfected, in his image should sin, 1 John. It is not I, Paul said, but sin that does the evil, and though our conscience is clear we are not without sin.

Perhaps this can best be seen in Peter's responses to Jesus. Out of one heart, the new heart, he proclaims the Fathers revelation. Out of the other, the heart of Satan, he proclaims rebellion. James says it should not be this way. But, it is. He goes on to say that if a man can control his tongue he is a perfect man. He obviously was talking about Christ, not us. Another look at the OT reveals that David, whom you quote, had continual evil in his heart and it was abundantly evident in his life. What he cried out for was a new one. For only out of a new heart (the root of the tree) proceeds the fruit of everlasting life. I know it is a mystery but when you look into the mirror, you do not see Christ, you see the flesh. We are not to go away thinking that we are not a bad tree. The fact is we, in ourselves can produce nothing but evil. Paul said, I am convinced that nothing that lives in my flesh is good. Out of the heart of the flesh, which the Scripture describes as stone, proceeds no good. It is only the heart of Christ, described in Scripture as the heart of flesh, that produces good fruit. It is he we see when we look into the perfect law of liberty, not ourselves. Confusing? As I often tell my family, the word of God is so complicated that a child can understand it.

There is no doubt that we are commanded to put off the old man, and that we are renewed day by day and are being conformed to the image of Christ. I would have you look at Christ in the incarnation, though. Was he always what he would become? While it is true that he grew as a man being fully man, he was still the Son of God from all eternity. Likewise we are becoming what we have always been in the forordination of God, and will always be in His presence if indeed we have been born from above. Abraham offered his only son whom he loved. Scripture teaches us also, that his favorite son was Ishmael. It is what God declares us to be not what we are in and of ourselves, that we truly are. We are in him because he says we are and we remain in him because he says we will and we bear fruit as he has declared we will, each according to its kind, sanctified by his word. As it is written, each man has his gift, and every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights. Also, we have been made full heirs with Christ, sanctified, justified and seated with him in the heavenlies.

Matthew 12.33 is not about the believer. I am suprised though that you did not quote 7.24. It would certainly appear there, that it is up to us to do the work. But again, other Scriptures tell us that it is he who builds the house. What I like about Matthew 7 is that it is a rebuke about judging by outward fruits, as in good/bad deeds or righteous/unrighteos behavior. If we judge rightly we see. We see that we have sinned and having sinned we are guilty of the whold law. If you measure it in a scale, Christian bad fruit will far out weigh the good. Matthew 7, far from being a review of behaviors firstly, is a warning about those who circumcise the flesh. The subject is false teaching, the fruit of the lips, doctrine, not the production of deeds.

The fig tree in Luke is not a bad tree, it is an non-producing tree. The trees in Matthew are producing both kinds. What kind of tree the fig was is not known. Whether it would have produced good figs or bad figs, No one knows. I do not think that is the idea of the parable, anyway, but that the owner of the orchard has the right to do what he wills with what belongs to him. It is linked together with repentence, but repentence is a gift from God, it is done by Him in us so that we will repent.

Galatians 5.22-24, ah yes, but what about 17. What Paul is doing here is not setting up a dicotomy of action that you may or may not want to do. Verse 17 makes it clear, (See Romans' companion text on this verse), that it is not our choice. The lists are the obvious. In verse 24 we have the definitive answer, compare it to what Paul says in Romans 7, (I serve God in my mind). Then 25, "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit," (literally follow the Spirit). This hearkens back to the beginning of the epistle, where it is not just our justification only, but our sanctification that Paul is addressing. He does not divide them in two. They are one salvation. Then finally 26, "Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another." If it were a matter of outward signs, works, then we would have something to boast about. And, when we take the pietist road we will eventually find ourselves dividing along the lines of the Circumcision.

Thanks again so much for you guidance. I'll try to follow the instructions that you gave for using the Helps, but man am I slow of mind. If I blow up the world, just know that I did not mean to.

Chosen,

First, unless I am totally misunderstanding your position, you appear to hold to a form of Wesleyan perfectionism, i.e., although we are sometimes sinful on the outside, we are in essence sinless, aka: perfect/sanctified on the inside. Doubtless if this is the case, then we are at opposite poles on this issue.

Second, you appear to bifurcate the nature of man so that a believer is comprised of two separate "natures"; one that is totally sanctified and cannot sin and one that is evil and from which sin comes forth. But I find, nor did any of the Reformers or Puritans, anything in Scripture to support anything akin to this. Man has but one nature, which from conception is corrupt, depraved, evil. When the Holy Spirit regenerates that spiritually dead nature (aka: soul, spirit), a new disposition is created, or should I say re-created. Yet this nature isn't fully developed. The transformation of the new nature is a life-long process which won't be completed until the believer is glorified, i.e., made perfect. As I stated before, sanctification is two-fold. There is the "definitive" aspect which due to the imputed righteousness of Christ, God looks upon the believer as "holy". (cf. Zech 3:2-5). And, there is the "progressive" aspect whereby the new nature becomes more and more conformed to the image of Christ, albeit in part. Both aspects find their origin in God. Yet in the latter, there is an actual "working out" of that progression of sanctification by the individual who is held responsible to do so.

Third, I believe you are wrongly injecting your own ideas into the passages where Jesus speaks of the tree producing fruit:

Notice, that the Lord Christ makes no mention whatsosever about the "root" of the tree, but only of the "tree" itself and it being the bearer of the fruit. Again, it is the Spirit of God Who works and wills within a believer, it is nonetheless the believer who brings forth the fruit. It is the "fruit of the Spirit", i.e., it is indicative of one indwelt by the Spirit and by which one can be known. A believer can and often does produce "good" fruit and yet continues to sin throughout his/her life. (cf. simul iustus et peccator)

Matt 12:33 is certainly speaking of human beings as the context indisputably shows. The entire discourse is a tirade against the dissimulation of the Pharisees. The point of that specific text is that good fruit can only come from a good tree and and evil fruit comes from an evil tree, thus "Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree corrupt, and its fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by its fruit." There is a one-to-one correlation between what a person is and what he thinks and does. This is also an apologetic against the modern "moralizing" often heard in both the world and in many churches.

Re: Gal 5:17; 22-24. There is certainly a "struggle" that is taking place between one's nature and the Spirit of God Who dwells within. That is the whole point of the passage and which Paul expresses in detail in his autobiographical corollary in Rom 7. Thus the exhortation beginning in vs 13 to walk according to the influences of the Spirit and not according to the flesh, i.e., the remaining sinful disposition in one's nature. In principle this struggle has been won and shall be completely victorious when the believer is glorified. However, in the meantime, here on earth the struggle is real and will continue throughout one's lifetime.

In His grace,

Quite the contrary, the Lord makes specific mention of the root. If you look in 7.15 it speaks of the outward and the inward. The inward man, that is the man of the spirit, is either good or bad and therefore, the whole tree is either good or bad. That is what Jesus is speaking of in the context of 12. The view of the teachers of the Law was that they could clean the inside by the outside, but flesh does not give birth to spirit. The obvious is that they were judging by the outward and by the works of the law were proclaiming the inside clean, so that they make themselves as God, their own savior. In 7 the context is the rebuke of judging by the outward, they are therefore to remove the log (of the law that blinds them to their own sin) out of their eye. Thus 7.15 is the same as the warning to beware of the levening of the workers of the Pharisees. The context is clear, it is the doctrine of TRUTH, not deeds. Look back to Chapter 6 about swearing oaths and remember the oath of the Israelites and how the "cleansing of the outside," could not make them clean on the inside, instead it brings forth death and the curse. And, remember that the giving of the law did not open their eyes, in fact even to today, when Moses is read the veil is pulled over their eyes.

You have injected your thoughts and made the two trees of 7 and twelve to be the same in all way. The root is the source of goodness, not the tree. In the one they look at the fruit of the outside, Jesus not keeping their law, therefore fruit is bad, the tree must be bad. In the other, they see the fruit which is good, i.e. the works that he is doing, and say that the root is bad, i.e. the tree is bad. Jesus is fed up, either make one good or one bad. It is the Root of David who is also the Firstfruit, and if the root is good so also, the fruit, so quit judging by the outward appearances.

Matthew 12, completely refutes your assertion that there are not two distinct natures in us. James speaks the same wisdom, for though it should not be that sweet and bitter should come forth from the same well, it is the case.

I think that you do not comprehend the Reformers correctly. Paul most assuredly taught a new nature, the NEW MAN, not concieved as the first Adam, nor has God infused righteous into us. But, as Paul said all that matters, is the new nature, the New Creation. This is that which is supported by the root. The abiding is not in our flesh, it is by the root that the tree is supported, Christ in the new nature, created in the likeness of Gods own dear son, not in the likeness of the flesh, always and only produce good fruit. Paul was not just making his old nature new and improved only in need of tweeking. It is destined for destruction, not restoration. Except that the old be removed, the new shall not come.

Weslyan Perfectionism speaks exactly according to the doctrine of self-sanctification, that is the cleaning of the inside by the outside. When Wesley rejected the teaching of the Reformers he again embraced the legalism of dead works according to the Arminians. The mixing of flesh and spirit was a of primary concern to Calvin in his discourse against the heresy of Osiander. And though of a different type, the gnosticism of essential righteous is still the same Pelagian error, that we have an native righteousness that is capable of producing good works. The errors of the Scholastic and Papists are really no different.

Either the tree is wholly good or it is fit only to be cast into the fire. Which is what Jesus said. We do not live by sight, but by faith in the Son of God, in whom we are hidden, and in him there is not sin. Matthew 12 is a repudiation of this mixing of wines, light and darkness, good and evil. Either the New Man within is created in perfection though not yet mature, and obviously not yet manifested, or, it is possessed of evil. A blasphemy, if I am not mistaken is exactly, what Jesus is talking of. Again, though, Jesus makes appeal to the idleness of words, so that doctrine, true and false is in sight it is not the main point. Out of their hearts they were speaking blasphemies because they did not recognize the Son in their midst. So, on the one hand the context of the two tree teach is immediately the false hope of the Law, of a man who is just like God, in the other is the false hope of a Christ who is just like man. But Jesus came both God and man. Jesus was exposing their hypocracy as it was obvious that they were speaking two different doctrines.
And, neither were correct.

Do not take this to mean that we are gods because he has called us his sons. But, neither has he mixed the two natures. He is immediate with us in our New Man, he is not, nor could he ever be one with the evil one, that is the old nature. But a man does not put new wine in old wine skins, period. Matthew is unequivocal about this issue, namely that only out of his good treasure does a man bring forth good things. We speak both good and evil, but the one cannot have the same well spring as the other. A house divided against itself cannot stand, but we have the owner of the house who is both its builder and owner, and its occupant, it is not divided. But, in this person, who we are these two nature, never mingled war incessantly.

Again it is Weslyan, or at least pietistic legalism, not sanctification through the Spirit that you propose, no I. I have just re-read Calvin, and he does not make the two natures one, flesh and spirit, co-mingled, nor would you ever find this revelation in Scripture. Spirit gives birth to spirit and flesh to flesh. We are, however in this body, both natures, good and evil in one person. But, just as the two natures of Christ are not confused, neither are ours.

Paul make the absolute separtion also in Romans 7. If there is a one to one correspondance with the person and what he does, you're damned, unless you are confessing perfection. Paul makes his place of worship, not the external but his mind. And, he testifies in another, that we have the mind of Christ, not the mind of the old nature, not a mind of evil. The same absolute separtation is made in Galations. It is an error to say that we are to work along with the "influences" of the spirit. This is the heresy of infused grace. The would that you "may" not do as you want, is directed to the desire of our new heart, created in the image of the Son, who always does the will of his Father. It is true that the Spirit wars, but we are the vessel of his wrath against all wickedness and deceitful practices of man by which he suppresses the knowledge of God. The mystery that you are talking about is why God does not prevent our sin at all time. To that I would direct to Hebrews 12. Surely you do not believe that the Spirit can lose the battle, do you? And, do think that we can lose? "For in this world you will have tribulation, but...Peter, Satan has desired to sift you...but I have prayed for you." We never lose, it is impossible that we should not perservere.

You have rightly said that we will sin. And, we have to bear the responsiblity for the action of the old nature. But, is not that also what Christ came to do, and not to redeam the old nature but to destroy it. So it is written that in Christ sin, the flesh, which is the old nature, has been circumcised from us, no long shall it have any part in us. We do not merely walk by the influenc of the Spirit. But, the works of the two distinct natures are evident. So, we walk by faith, not by sight and we walk no longer after the ways of the flesh, but by the Spirit.

I would encourage you to quit reading the Scripture according to your traditions. 1 John tells us that we do not go on practicing sin because his seed remains in us. Indeed, it is impossible that we, (our new man) can go on sinning, for in him there is no sin. John is in perfect concert with Paul. It is no longer I who sin. But, if we do sin.... The apparent contradiction is explained by John's gospel Chps 14 through 17. Perhaps you are one of those who believe that you can walk in and out of the Spirit. These chapters rule out any such doctrine. Now, if you are thinking that this is soley referring to the parousia, or that the epistles are merely talking about our "walk" let me disabuse you of that, by directing your attention to 14, especially verses 16 through 18, and then again in 17.20-26. This singular discourse is not without its relevence. If you are in him you are in him, and if you are in him then he is in you, and neither is without the other, for his seed remains in you, but if you do not have the Spirit you are none of his. You can neither love him nor remain in him unless you are of him, that is his seed. Unless of course you thing that you can divide out of your body your mother from your father. But if he is in you then the love of God has been shed abroad in your heart and it always follows the will of the Father.

Aside from the fact that I must disagree with your faulty interpretation of Scripture on this matter, I am also curious to know what "traditions" are you encouraging me to quit? Personally, I am not aware that I had any "traditions". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scratchchin.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,

Pilgrim,


I beg your pardon Pilgrim, but you hold to the "tradition" of Sola Scriptura. This is a "tradition" in which the Scripture itself approves.


And another little known word of blessing from Isaiah:


Denny

Romans 3:22-24

Well Denny, that is the only "tradition" which I am aware of that I follow. And IF Chosen is wanting me to quit that "tradition", it will take far more than his request to convince me that it is something I should cast aside. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

PS. not all "tradition" is bad. Scripture knows of several God-approved traditions which Christ's sheep should hang onto tenaciously.

In His grace,

No, it is not the traditions of sola scritura. Cults believe in sola scriptura and are dead wrong in their interpretation of it. The traditions that I am speaking of is the pietistic bent with which you view Scripture. There are fine pietists in the reformed tradition, what I challenge is not their orthodoxy in the five solas or the five points, it is in their interpretation of praxis and how one can know they are saved. Which is what we are discussing in this portion of this thread-- is it by the Spirit, or is it by your works, or both, is what should be, what must be, or, is the law given as a school master rather than a slave driver? Your concern is well registered. We cannot remain unconcerned about our spiritual maturity and claim any confidence in the faith. Where we differ is whether or not the fruit that can be examined by us, by which we might know we are saved, is of a material or a spiritual nature. If it is our understanding of teaching, that is material. If it is in our abilities to perform obediently what is commanded in practice, that is material. The only testimony of our salvation that has any true value is the Spirit witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God. We do not need the testimony of man, not even our selves. And, the testimony of the world will always condemn the saint, as it did in Jesus' case. So, when it all shakes out, the wind will drive away the chaff, but the rock will remain. Whose declaration is it then? Yours, mine, another man's. Or, are we declared a friend of God by the Spirit?

You have said of me, that I seem to hold to a Wesleyan form of perfectionism? You failed to explain what you meant. How is that I could? If anything you should have been accusing me of the same thing that Paul was accused of. I hope by now you do not think that I believe in any sense that we can perfect our own holiness though self-effort. What I believe is as far from perfectionistic faith as light is from dark. It appears however, and this is the tradition that I hear in your words, that you believe that a believer can grow through some self effort, by some infused grace of God in the believer and that he can have assurance if he will only apply himself. Correct me if I am wrong. You say a person repents, believes and perserveres on his own. I say that they are gifts from God, empowered by God so that the life we live we live by the grace of God, no longer I but Christ. You say that a person is an active participant, and I say that the person is a passive participant, dead to himself and alive to Christ so that it is God who works in us both the willingness and the power to perform. I believe that my perspective is much closer to salvation which is a gift perfect from the beginning, perfectly perfecting its work in us, a gift that is given that we possess by grace. This, also, I believe is closer to the faith of the early reformers. The salvation that you have discribed appears to be a gift that must become a possession though perserverance in obedience. That would be closer to Wesleyan Methodism than I am, would it not? I am quite to the contrary. I believe in an active faith worked in us by the Holy Spirit by which we believe into Christ. It is perfect and will be perfected because it is He who is the author (first in) and the perfecter (the one who makes it complete). I believe that our salvation is in Christ, both our justification and our sanctification. And, I do not fear telling anyone that it is finished and that there is nothing left for them to do. And, that they will abide because of his love not theirs. I believe in this freedom is the only means to do what has been commanded. I believe, as Paul that the only place that I can serve God is in my mind and it cannot be based upon my "feelings" of security that are the result of the things that I do. Though I will do what he commands. You have said that we should not base our faith in feelings, then you have also said that it is in our behavior that we can trust, or at least, it sounds as that is what you mean, or at least that our works are the only grounds of our assurance of our faith. I ask you this, by what do you trust those works. Is it in knowing that they are done by the Holy Spirit, or are you only imagining, feeling, that they are? If you know they are of the Holy Spirit, then they are not of you, not because of your obedience, anyway. Galatians tells us what the works of the flesh, and of the Spirit, are. It is not an exaustive list, but even at that, one of them is self-ambition. Hmm? I just wonder, does it not feel good to do good things. What could be more self-ambitious, and self-deceiving, than making oneself feel good by doing good works. So, when I say that you look at Scripture through the eyes of your traditions it is because you interpret them in a way that produces categories of behavior by which you justify yourself by your works and judge others by theirs. You do that because you have been taught to do that and you know no other way. You have said that I have a faulty interpretation of Scripture. Where? And, isn't faulty another way, kinder perhaps, but still a way of saying false. Then you have only one option, to repair the breach, rescue me from the fire, do your good works. Pray that God would give me repentance that I might repent, and teach me where I am wrong. In that you will have saved your brother and yourself.

Chosen,

It would appear that you are having difficulty comprehending what I've written to you on this subject. I'll therefore make one final attempt to make clear that which you have not obviously grasped in regard to my position:

1) Salvation is of God; by grace through faith in Christ from beginning to end. Works have no merit whatsoever in regard to salvation yet they are inseparably bound to faith, for the just shall live by faith. (cf. James 2)

2) The salvation merited by Christ's substitutionary atonement for the elect is perfect, but the believer's earthly living out of that salvation applied to them by the Holy Spirit is far from perfect; aka: "already but not yet" perspective.

3) Assurance is based upon BOTH the immovable promises of God AND the evidence of regeneration and ongoing work of the Holy Spirit. (cf. Matt 13:23; Rom 6; Eph 1:4; 2:10; et al)

As to your disputing that my view is not "as close" to that of the Reformers I would simply state that I am in full accord to that which they have written on this subject.

[color:"blue"]The Larger Catechism
Questions 79-81[/color]

Q79: May not true believers, by reason of their imperfections, and the many temptations and sins they are overtaken with, fall away from the state of grace ?
A79: True believers, by reason of the unchangeable love of God,[1] and his decree and covenant to give them perseverance,[2] their inseparable union with Christ,[3] his continual intercession for them,[4] and the Spirit and seed of God abiding in them,[5] can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace,[6] but are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.[7]

1. Jer. 31:3
2. II Tim. 2:19-21; II Sam. 23:5
3. I Cor. 1:8-9
4. Heb. 7:25; Luke 22:32
5. I John 2:27; 3:9
6. Jer. 32:40; John 10:28
7. I Peter 1:5

Q80: Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?

A80: Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him,[1] may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God's promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made,[2] and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God,[3] be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.[4]

1. John 2:3
2. I Cor. 2:12; I John 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 4:13, 16; Heb. 6:11-12
3. Rom. 8:16
4. I John 5:13

Q81: Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?
A81: Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith,[1] true believers may wait long before they obtain it;[2] and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions;[3] yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God as keeps them from sinking into utter despair.[4]

1. Eph. 1:13
2. Isa. 1:10; Psa. ch. 88
3. Psa. 22:1; 31:22; 51:8, 12; 87:1-12; Song of Sol. 5:2-3, 6
4. I John 3:9; Job 13:15; Psa. 73:15, 23; Isa. 54:7-10

[color:"blue"]______________________________________________________________________[/color]

[color:"blue"]The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XVIII
Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation[/color]


I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation[1] (which hope of theirs shall perish):[2] yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavoring to walk in all good conscience before him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace,[3] and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.[4]

1. Micah 3:11; Deut. 29:19; John 8:41
2. Amos 9:10; Matt. 7:22-23
3. I John 2:3; 3:14, 18-19, 21, 24; 5:13
4. Rom. 5:2, 5

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope;[5] but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation,[6] the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made,[7] the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God,[8] which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption.[9]

5. Heb. 6:11, 19
6. Heb. 6:17-18
7. II Peter 1:4-11; I John 2:3; 3:14; II Cor. 1:12
8. Rom. 8:15-16
9. Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; II Cor. 1:21-22

III. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it:[10] yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.[11] And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure,[12] that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance;[13] so far is it from inclining men to looseness.[14]

10. I John 5:13
11. I Cor. 2:12; I John 4:13; Heb. 6:11-12; Eph. 3:17-19
12. II Peter 1:10
13. Rom. 5:1-2, 5; 14:17; 15:13; Eph. 1:3-4; Psa. 4:6-7; 119:32
14. I John 1:6-7; 2:1-2; 3:2-3; Rom. 6:1-2; 8:1, 12; Titus 2:11-12, 14; II Cor. 7:1; Psa. 130:4

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light:[15] yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived;[16] and by the which, in the meantime, they are supported from utter despair.[17]

15. Psa. 31:22; 51:8, 12, 14; 77:1-10; Eph. 4:30-31; Matt. 26:69-72 and Luke 22:31-44
16. I John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Psa. 51:8, 12; 73:15
17. Micah 7:7-9; Jer. 32:40; Isa. 54:7-14; II Cor. 4:8-10

In His grace,

Hi Pilgrim,

If ones dies soon after initial regeneration in which santification in the life never really gets off the ground where does that leave the sinner because the RCC believes there is still much work to be done in the life of the sinner before one can enter heaven and that's where they make the case for purgatory...

I'm also relating this to 1Cor3 - Catholics use this to promote Purgatory while Reformed view this as alluding to our rewards in heaven, right?

So to clarify this further AJC, you are asking if the person in question is regenerated by the Holy Spirit but never, converted? Or are you asking if the person is regenerated and converted but isn't sanctified? Please remember that the ordo salutis (order of salvation) is this:

And btw AJC regeneration doesn't occur unless conversion also occurs. God wouldn't regenerate a person who wouldn't be converted.

AJC,

Let me limit my answer to adults and not address infants or children. If one has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, then of necessity that person will express true evangelical repentance and exercise a true living in Christ. The result of doing so is "justification", i.e., God pronounces/declares that person to be "not guilty" based upon the vicarious substitutionary atonement of the Lord Christ. Simply put, that person has been delivered from judgment at that very moment. (cf. Rom 5:1, 2; 8:1ff) Therefore the matter of "sanctification" is a non issue since justification includes all that is necessary unto salvation. Sanctification is simply the outworking of one's justification... i.e., justification declares one holy and sanctification is the process whereby one begins to be transformed into being holy. (cf. 2Cor 5:17; Eph 1:4; 2:10; James 2:26)

It is utterly impossible that a believer could add to the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to him. Salvation is ALL of grace and nothing of works. (Rom 4:16; 11:6; Eph 2:5, 8, 9) Not even the tiniest of "good deeds" can add to the perfect cleansing blood of the Lord Christ. A believer is clothed with Christ's perfect righteousness, so what more could one possibly be in need of? (cf. Isa 53; Zech 3:1-7; Matt 1:21)

Thus Paul speaks of the death of the believer as going to be in the presence of the Lord, i.e., there is no "intermediate state or place":

2Cor 5:4-9 (ASV) "For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord (for we walk by faith, not by sight); we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him."

As to 1Cor 3, one would have to perform some miraculous textual gymnastics to find anything that even hints of purgatory in that text. The very notion of the Roman State Church's doctrine of purgatory is antithetical to the biblical doctrine of salvation, i.e., Sola Gratia, Sola Fide and Solus Christus. Again, it is ALL of grace and nothing of works.

In that marvelous grace,